About this site

Many moons ago, I started this blog to combat some of the health myths floating around the vegan and raw-food diet spheres—especially wacky notions about human physiology, evolutionary nutrition, the effects of animal products, and other issues that tended to get me banned from raw vegan message boards when I talked about them. Hence the site title.

But I soon realized there were more exciting things to write about than hybridized avocados and raw vegans with bad teeth. Raw Food SOS was thus reborn into what it is now—a site that examines the science behind common nutritional beliefs, including the ongoing scuffles between omnivores and vegans, the harmfulness of saturated fat, the healthfulness of vegetable oils, and whatever else warrants a closer look.

This site isn’t specifically low-carb or high-carb, vegan or carnivore, raw food or cooked food, or anything else that could be neatly labeled. My own experience as a (recovered) raw vegan taught me that “diet dogma” is killer, so the emphasis here is on unraveling research rather than building an ideology. My goal is to make nutritional science accessible and non-boring to those who really care about their health.

About me

I’m not going to put my age on here anymore because I always forget to change it when I get older. So I’ll just let you guys know I was born on May 4th, 1987, at 6:11 PM Pacific Standard Time—you do the math. (Birthday emails are gleefully accepted.) Evicted from my mother’s womb in California, raised in Seattle, schooled in Flagstaff, enraptured by Oregon, sporadic resident of Los Angeles, former inhabiter of Kailua-Kona, Hawaii, and currently bouncing between Portland and Whidbey Island in Washington. I like Scrabble, cats, thunderstorms, knee-high boots, mysterious things, mountains, really old houses, aspen trees, albino gorillas, and the color red.

I typically spend about five hours a day reading and writing about nutrition—voluntarily. I may seem like a normal human being on the outside, but rest assured, I have enough nerd in me to make Steve Urkel look like the Fonz. In January 2014, I published a book called “Death by Food Pyramid” and am gearing up for a second one.

My interest in health started at age seven, when I first went vegetarian, and then resurged at the age of 11 when an undiagnosed wheat allergy turned me into a walking zombie for a year. Although cutting out wheat improved my health tremendously, that alone wasn’t enough to keep me feeling big-H Healthy, and over the years I cycled through various versions of cooked vegan, raw vegan, and then raw omnivore. Click here to see what I eat right now.

Although I’m still a mostly-raw foodist, I’m not the kind that that thinks cooked food is poison—quite the contrary. I eat this way because out of all my self-guinea-pigging dietary experiments, a raw food diet with small amounts of animal products is what brings me “peak performance” for both mind and body. I don’t want to feel good; I want to feel awesome.

I firmly believe we all have the right to be healthy, and that an understanding of nutrition isn’t a privilege reserved for the elite. Speaking of which…

Who do I think I am, running a health blog without a nutrition PhD? Shouldn’t I be flipping burgers at McDonalds like all those other English majors?

I get this question a lot. It speaks volumes about how we view learning, and why we’ve abandoned personal responsibility for using our own brains when it comes to health. “We can’t possibly understand nutrition if we haven’t paid for a degree! Let’s just trust someone with formal credentials instead of thinking for ourselves.”

First of all, if you believe valid education only happens in a classroom setting, I sure hope you aren’t reading this blog on a computer—since both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were college dropouts without any credentials to work with technology. ;)

I guess I’ll start by explaining my perspective. I have deep respect for formal learning, and a touch of envy for those who thrive in a traditional school system. Most of my family works in higher education (my dad, a college vice president; my mom, a former biologist who did postgraduate immunology research), and my original aspiration was to teach at the university level. Some awesome stuff happens there.

But I also believe that—for people who are self-motivated, have the time and resources for independent study, and aren’t learning something like dentistry or surgery that requires hands-on training—that a college education can be wildly inefficient and sometimes a barrier to objective thinking. Teachers, after all, come equipped with their own set of biases—ones students must cater to or even adopt if they want a good grade. (My college Women’s History prof comes to mind. Don’t agree that men are the root of all things evil, fattening, and smelly? Then no “A” for you!) At least in my experience, college fostered an atmosphere where the rewards (high marks, scholarships, making the parents proud) were more pertinent than what was actually learned.

My post-college education strategy has been simple. I approach the field of nutrition like learning a new language: total immersion-style. You didn’t learn your native tongue by sitting in a classroom following grammar lessons; you learned it by jumping into an initially confusing world and feeling your way around until it all started making sense. Every day, I make a conscious effort to surround myself with learning opportunities. I read everything I can get my hands on—from statistics textbooks to scientific papers. I find curricula posted on university websites, copy the lesson plans that look relevant, and acquire the reading material from the library instead of paying thousands of dollars for classroom instruction. If I can’t grasp something on my own, I email or call smart people and ask them to help me. My goal is to understand. I don’t stop digging until I’ve plowed to the bottom and broken my shovel trying to go even deeper.

I believe anything can be learned. I believe passion is the best fuel for knowledge acquisition. I believe the subjects that have personal relevance are the most enticing, intriguing, and fulfilling ones to study. This is why I blog.

And because so many people ask, I’ll post my school bio. My educational history, no detail spared:

Elementary school: Was accepted into the “Highly Capable Program” (HiCap) north of Seattle, which is where my childhood effectively ended. Their website explains the program as creating an “academic setting that provides acceleration through curriculum compacting and advanced training in critical thinking and research skills required in academic areas.” In simpler terms, that means we had to start pulling all-nighters in fourth grade just to finish all our homework, spent recess in the library’s “Study Club” cramming for upcoming tests, and probably accrued permanent spinal damage from hauling around 40-pound backpacks filled with textbooks before we were even tall enough to ride on roller coasters. I can honestly say the curriculum in elementary school was more challenging than anything I encountered in college. (On the bright side, I think I learned more critical-thinking skills here than at any other point in my education.)

Middle school: Took honors math, science, and English, as well as advanced band. Felt stifled by the inability to choose what I wanted to study, and channeled my adolescent angst into writing bad poetry, taking pictures of gingko trees, and practicing my bassoon for two hours a day. After spending elementary school in a setting where you’d get eaten alive if you couldn’t keep up with the grueling pace, middle school was excruciatingly slow. Spent 5% of each day actually learning, and the other portion watching the teacher explain and re-explain simple concepts to the students who couldn’t be bothered to listen the first time. All my class notes from this era are defaced with elaborate margin-doodles, evidence of boredom and a tendency to daydream.

High school: Took honors math, science, English, and geography. My resentment towards school amplified freshman year: I knew what I wanted to study, and didn’t want to waste time doing busywork and sitting through classes I wasn’t truly interested in. The desire for mental freedom was almost crippling. Determined to get the heck out of there as soon as possible, I took extra courses, begged the principal for mercy, graduated early, and started college when I was 16. (From the second half of my sophomore year onward, I spent most of my after-school time reading about nutrition online, which is when I first got into raw veganism.)

College: Attended Northern Arizona University. Changed majors several times, bouncing between the sciences (to feed my brain) and the arts (to feed my soul). Eventually settled on English, because the common denominator in everything I loved to do involved writing. Enjoyed many of my classes, but felt they were more about regurgitating what the teachers wanted to hear than actually thinking critically. I found it difficult to spend any focused time studying things I wasn’t passionate about. Tried to take classes that culminated with 40-page research papers because I deeply enjoyed producing them. Walked in the December 2007 graduation with a 4.0, summa cum laude.

That about sums it up.

Lastly, I’m always happy to answer any questions or help other health seekers (current or aspiring) who are struggling, so please don’t hesitate to leave a comment or shoot me an email.

Ancestral Health Symposium 2011

Eye color changed from light brown to hazel after switching to raw foods, likely from an increased intake of glutathione.


  1. Dear Denise,
    I love your blog. I must say that I too have been troubleshooting on the raw diet.
    I am in my mid 50’s, which is an interesting stage of life when it comes to
    health and well being. Menopause. Metabolism. Exercise.
    I removed gluten from my diet about 2 years ago. I felt fine…but not at my
    optimum. I went in search of a life style eating plan. But what……?
    January 2009 I linked into a website regarding raw foods. I researched, gathered notes, experimented, joined forums, sought answers to my many questions,
    made raw recipe after raw recipe, food combining, detox, green smoothies, digestion….etc.
    This past August I went 100% raw. As each day past, I felt wonderful. Alert!
    (even at 3 in the afternoon). Then, about 4 weeks in….I noticed that my jeans
    were loose. What is this?! The scale registered 10 lbs gone!
    As of this date I am 21 lbs lighter, feel wonderful, 80-90% raw, my
    metabolism is reborn, and I have a ton of energy.
    I no longer struggle with fluctuations in my weight. I am alert.
    I feel lighter. I feel satisfied. I am truly amazed at this lifestyle of eating.
    I don’t preach raw….but anyone that wants to listen. As you can tell, I love to share.
    I hope more people find their way to your blog.

    1. hi fran –
      i am v overweight and struggling with the 3 m’s. when you say 80 % raw I am intrigued by what the 20 % is made up of ? needing all the help i can get

    2. Hi Denise- So glad to find your website. I have been 80/10/10 more or less for the last 2 years- “cheating” in a way that resembles your diet. I feel so much better eating some of the foods not on the “raw fruits, nuts and veggie” list. I have never been too much for nuts .
      Thanks so much for all you research and posting=so appreciate your vision and curiosity!

  2. Frannie, thank you so much for sharing your story. It really is amazing how many benefits this lifestyle brings—especially regarding the skyrocketing energy. I’m so glad you’re thriving! Leading by example is the best way to show others the changes raw can bring.

    1. Hi to u all.
      Just found this blog resently and I think it is amazing. Have been living healthypretty much through all my life.exercise takes part of my every day routine..not a smoker or drinker eather.no wonder I was surprised when my recent blood test showed a low level of white blood cells.am trying to be even more healthy, and started to introduce more and more row food to my body.all my family is concerned and worried of course.they dont realy agree with this type of a diet.being a tall and normal sized girl, they think I am too skinny now.but I feel good!
      My question is if I will carry on, could I maintain my blood? Maybe it sounds silly, but I realy dont know who else could I talk to about this…..

  3. This is such a fabulous blog, and wonderfully written to! I’m vegan and a low-raw foodist and had a handful of concerns about rawism – most of which you write about and have helped me understand better. Keep up the great work! I’m going to add you to my blogroll on my healthy vegan blog http://nocrapdiet.wordpress.com

  4. Denise. I love this blog. I have been having a bit of chal;enge in adjusting to a new plan on raw. I have experienced some of the things listed here.
    Done the things they all did and have had the end of the honeymoon period. Seeing to amp up and I am not sure what that will be or look like. I am not into meat products or raw eggs or dairy at all so that is not an option.
    I tried a bunch of fruit and that was not right. Still seeing where it all will work well for me.
    ANd the teeth thing..oh my! I love how you dispel the standard ideas people have and have been applying that just dont work.
    Thankx and love,Bette (from the Fu)

  5. do you know of anyone who has reversed transparent teeth? if so what did they do?

    Thank you for your blog

    Take care

    God bless


    1. Rachel, I’ve talked to a few people whose teeth regained a more “solid” look after making diet or supplement adjustments. One person said raw dairy did the trick, a few others had success supplementing with calcium and vitamin D, and others found that eating more dark leafy greens (especially kale and bok choy) restored density to their teeth. The underlying trend seems to be more calcium, above all else, at least anecdotally.

      1. Thank you so much for replying to my comment. I only read it today.

        If you hear of anything else that they did to help their teeth please let me know. I am trying lots of things to reverse my transparet teeth and they only seem to be getting worse.

        Thanks again

        God bless


        1. Try eating a few cahsews in the morning. You may also make
          a yogurt of it by grinding, add water stirring to thick paste, leaving on counter until that first bubble, then refrigerate.
          Northern Arizona,
          class of Jan ’69.

        2. just a quick one, i fixed my transparent teeth eith a combined mag and calcium supplement at 400mg a day. literally went back to white within days! details on paleo hacks website

      2. Neisy,
        Your comment on calcium and Vit D should be a consideration to all no matter what their diet. However, the body can not absorb just calcium from supplements. Calcium without a “liquifier” will cause stones and calcium deposits and often times women especially just take calcium supplements to keep from getting osteoporosis; not a good idea. You need a balance of Calcium w/magnesium for obsorbability along with organic sodium. Nature has it’s own answer in celery and okra, organic sodium keeps calcium liquified in the body so it can be obsorbed. Juicing is one of the best ways to get enough organic sodium. Try a combination of beets (liver cleanser) celery (organic sodium) carrots (beta carotene) and an apple (pectin for good digestion) as a juice drink. Yummy! Very tasty and soooooo good for you. Mixed green salads with kale, spinach, chard, etc is also good source for calcium as you suggested. The best nut sources for calcium are sesame seed (try it as sesame milk) also almonds are king for calcium and you can make your own almond milk. Very simple to do.
        Also, recently read an article quoting a study on prevention of osteoporosis and the one thing found in the study above all else that prevented this condition was weight training. Yup! Whether we like working out or not, better get out those dumb bells (and I don’t mean the boyfriends). Good health to us all.

      3. You are a buffoon, and I am sorry T. Colin Campbell even took the time to respond to you. You remind me of a Valley Girl. Totally self-absorbed and full of anxieties.

        1. I only see one buffoon here pal, and that’s you. Start using your grey matter for what it was meant to be used – some critical thinking. And if you don’t like your dogmas to be challenged, stick to the like minded bunch and remain ignorant.

        2. I would much prefer to listen to Denise’s original thoughts, than you “rooting” for Campbell. Come out from Colin’s shadow and share your own ideas, instead of insulting someone who demonstrates the courage of her convictions. Had I been a little more circumspect, I wouldn’t have wasted the last year following Campbell’s flawed logic.

  6. Denise, I really think this is a great blog. Your writing is clear and you express your ideas very well. You are clearly well read on these subjects and you have experimented yourself and been your own scientist which is always the best science there is. It has certainly got me thinking about many things with a fresh perspective.

    I particularly like and admire your objectiveness on many issues which is rare especially in the raw/health/vegan circles. All too often, vegans and health enthusiasts alike prance around on their moral high horse accusing those who haven’t yet adopted some or all of their beliefs and ideas. Many are guilty of their own accusations. I have been like this myself many times in the past, getting too defensive, arrogant, you know how it goes. Insecurity in the end. A smart man once said that an argument is never won or lost because by the time it becomes an argument… Well, I’m getting better.

    Our eating and living habits are like a religion for many. The truth is, nobody really knows the hows, whys, whats…for sure. At least yet. I dream of the day when these issues are properly funded and studied without the “vested interests”.

    Keep on writing! The world needs you :D


  7. ok, I apologize if this comment is seen as objectifying in any way…not my intention. (I came for your China Study analysis, which is terrific.)

    But holy cow, you are gorgeous.

    1. I agree with anon there but I’d also like to add that if you want to be taken seriously in your to-be profession, you probably ought to stick to one or two professional pics for a public blog.

  8. came here from richard nikoley’s blog. absolutely second the anon comment above, but most of all *Wow!* at the exhaustive analysis. we need more nutrition scientists like you.

  9. Have you tried a regular Paleo diet? I’m curious if you would also be fine eating this way. I’ve been Paleo for about 8 months now and while I feel much better than I did before I still would like some more impovement. Basically Im wondering the benefits of raw Paleo vs Paleo. My issues are mostly mental, depression, anxiety, ADD.

  10. Hi Denise, I’ve found you whole blog and story so inspirational. I just finished my 4 years of nutritional science here in Ireland, although I am seriously starting to doubt my aptitude for it after seeing how you do it without even having studied it! Have you any words of advice on how I can fine tune my mind to the sciencey stuff like you have? I noticed you mentioned medical journals and the likes but are there any specific resources that have really helped you develop such an incredible ability to analyze data like you did for the China study? Or does it just takes years or trawling through studies rather than reading the nice bloggafied versions of studies :0 Any advice or tips would be great.
    Thanks in advance

    1. I would highly recommend courses in statistics (university, internet, or self-taught) for anyone going into nutrition, as there is a lot of industry-funded bogus manipulation of statistics in the nutrition field. Denise, I’d recommend more education on regression analysis for you if you’re interested in this kind of thing. I’m not that deep into stats but I love to see your enthusiasm for it– you go, girl! Regression analysis is critical for comparing multiple variables at the same time and seeing which are statistically significant.

  11. LOOOVE your blog!

    I too have guinea-pigged myself :p have tried everything and finally met an alternative doctor who discovered I had some serious food allergies.

    I ca’t claim I am a Paleo girl, but I call myself a cave girl. Sugars, grains and dairy have been banned from my diet.

    I love nuts, fish, poultry loads of veggies and fruits.

    Life has been good and at the age of 34, I seem to have found a balance.

    keep up the great job.

  12. Dear Denise,

    Your critique of The China Study suddenly became THE most referred text in paleo blogosphere and I think that you probably got hundreds of new readers overnight. Me included. Simply incredible!

  13. Thank you for your thoughtful analysis and objective discourse. I am just diving into dietary lifestyle replacement integrating raw foods, grains, legumes, nuts and fish. I found your site from Dr. Davis’ heartscanblog and appreciate the refreshing read.

    The best education often resides beyond the walls of universities.

  14. Denise, welcome to my blogroll!

    I’m just getting started on this blog, but your articles seem very well researched and interesting so far. FYI, I found this through Stephan at Wholehealthsource.

    And, I agree with Tuplad: you are insanely beautiful.

  15. hi, you are very very beautiful

    i didnt know eyes colour changed after eating raw
    its fasinating

    anyway , love your blog
    its wonderful

  16. Hey Denise,
    I love your blog – I don’t eat raw food, but I do like to buy raw milk, grass-fed meat, and pasture-raised poultry. If you ever want any hook ups for meat/dairy sources let me know!

  17. Hi Denise,

    It is amazing how much you look like your mother!!
    I also enjoy your writing style, articles, etc.
    Keep up the great work,

    Uncle Neal

  18. LOVE your stuff about the China study. It is so thorough and well written! Glad I discovered this blog.

    PS: Your eyes are super beautiful!

  19. Brilliant blog, superb insights, thank you.

    What is the science behind raw food? The anecdotes are compelling, and the theories rampant: acid/base, oxygenation, nutrient availability, etc… but it is hard to find the actual biochemical, physiological explanation for why raw works.

    Thank you, again!

    1. Herbiek,
      The reason raw oraganic food (just veggies/fruits/nuts/legumes/beans/sprouts) are so bioavailable is (1) they come with their own digestive enzyme (2) they are alkaline in nature (3) easily digested and very quick to get into the blood stream. It is the purest form of nutrients available to the body. If you what a scientific basis read “The Chemistry of Man” written by Dr Bernard Jensen. It was based on a $1M study of the entire chemical makeup of every organ and tissue in the human body. You’ll find it on http://www.bernardjensen.org or Amazon. If you go to http://www.bernardjensen.com you can also get illustrative charts on the human body broken down as to what vitamins, minerals and foods support each part. Wonderful way to know how to feed the body.
      Anything that is acid such as meats, dairy, cooked, highly processed food are unhealthy because these foods can’t break down by themselves where as anything you can put into a compost that makes healthy fertilizer decomposes quite quickly and goes back into the earth with all of it’s nutrients to create life all over again. There are no digestive enzymes with these acid foods; the human body only comes with so many enzymes over a persons lifetime and we lose enzymes as we age. Therefore, to keep from getting bloated, gases, gurd, etc, you need to take a digestive enzyme before you eat. The stomach ilining is coated with organic sodium and meat especially chicken is very hard to digest pulling the sodium away from the stomach lining trying to turn this acid producing food into something more alkaline. There is also a good book out there called “Alkaline or Die” and I forget the author but it will tell you more on the pH balance of the body than I can do justice here. Enjoy your veggies!

      1. From what I understand the whole “raw foods have enzymes” is a misunderstanding. The enzymes in plant foods have nothing to do with human enzymes that have functions in the human body.

  20. Hi Denise,

    Wow. I’ve just spent the morning scrolling through your site, and I’m in awe. I have one comment and one question.

    First, for your readers who are dealing with transparent teeth… I want to share my son’s success at re-mineralization. He’s my fourth and youngest, and when his elder brothers were young, raw milk was available in California. Sadly this was not so for Harry. Whereas the elder three have had no problems, my youngest has suffered with caries since elementary school to the point of having been referred two years ago to an entodontist for a serious root canal.

    As it happens, when he returned from that dentist visit, I had just finished reading Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston Price, and made a deal with him to postpone the treatment if he would engage in Dr. Price’s protocol. He agreed, and one year to the month later, he returned from the dentist with a clean bill of health; no sign of the former problem. So what protocol am I referring to? One I devised based on the principles of the healthy people Dr. Price discovered around the world who were free of dental disease; utilizing properly prepared seed foods, fermented/cultured foods, bone stock, organ meats, raw animal food, and plenty of saturated fat and cholesterol.

    As an example, every morning I made Harry a raw milk smoothie containing: 1 cup raw milk, 1/4 cup raw kefir, 3-4 scoops raw homemade ice cream, 1-2 raw pastured egg yolks and 1 teaspoon high vitamin butter/fermented cod liver oil blend.

    I also gave him a mug of pastured/wild animal bone broth at least once a day; either chicken, fish or beef, flavored with traditionally made soy sauce and a teaspoon of miso, with or without meat and vegetables.

    In addition, I made him whole grain sourdough rye toast smeared with pastured chicken liver mousse a couple of times a week, and the same toast smeared with homemade whole raw milk cream cheese and raw pastured butter almost every day. Often the cream cheese would contain smoked wild salmon.

    If he was home for dinner, he’d eat the meal I prepared (rare grass-fed lamb chops, wild fish, pastured chicken, etc) but being a teenager he was gone most evenings eating God knows what.

    I got him hooked on homemade kombucha, and in addition, was able to convince him to swap his IN N OUT Burger habit for a Burger Lounge habit (grass-fed beef and whole grain/wet yeasted buns… assuming I’d foot the bill for the ‘upgrade’) but I know he ate burritos and other fast food with his friends often. In any event, his fast food forays didn’t seem to affect the dental decay reversal at all, and as a happy side benefit, his acne cleared up completely.

    It’s been two years since we began, and he is thrilled to be free of decay for the first time in his life. He’s off to college soon, and I’m gratified that he now has the tools to keep himself healthy as he goes forward.

    My question is… as a raw foodist, do you forgo the minerals in bones based on the fact that you don’t eat bone stock, or do you have another way of consuming them?

    Thanks, and keep up the good work!

    Annie Dru

  21. Coming late to the party here. I found Denise’s criticisms listed some of the same things I wondered about as I read The China Study. However, having a bachelor’s degree in Math and enough science training to recognize the complicated nature of statistical analysis, especially with regard to calculus and multivariate statistics, I pretty much shelved my niggling concerns. After all, Campbell did voice my concerns regarding types of animal proteins vs. casein, and regarding whole foods vs. nutritional elements in his own book, so I knew he had considered these very concerns Denise addresses. I also had done some research on the Internet and found he did not become a vegetarian until well after the China Study was published, and did not convert to veganism for many years after that.

    There’s lies, damned lies, and statistics. Concerned scientists could read the epidemiologist’s critique of Denise at http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/debunkingthechinastudycritics/forum/topics/a-cancer-epidemiologist?xg_source=activity. Campbell’s work has been peer-reviewed. Hers has not.

    1. Ah, yes, the famed masked “epidemiologist”. Other than her participation in the witness protection program, what qualifications does the anonymous Vegan aspersion-caster have?

    2. Ah yes, I have been treated by some of his peers for so many, many years of rather unsuccessfully battling cancer (and the results of “treatments” for)-although everyone’s welcome to trim their own path-and by having experienced the nightmares of allopathic (conventional/standard) medicine and the rather entirely arrogant performances of that industry as a whole, and finding remarkable and sustainable solutions to my own catastrophic health dilemmas via food-as-medicine.-and plenty of it as animal food of all types, with the full complements of unbridled, but pastured saturated animal fat (as well as coconut, palm, olive and avocado also)…I can readily qualify for myself and family, that I would as soon dwell in huts with dirt floors (or floors of ice) with old and wise colleagues (but not toothless ones…that means they weren’t in such good understanding of what is best suited to eat) than to so much as pay
      a single visit to the office of any of the peers which review Campbell’s bereft works, along with the vast and seemingly endless amounts of
      such other excremental works that are either short on genuine curiosity
      and balanced observations or simply a rote exercise in which an answer
      has been pre-determined, which, in turn, initiated the study…lots of that around, to the saddened reality of so many seeking relief from the nightmares of suffering which the added burden of “treatments” being automatically and worse, carelessly doled out in the factory-line procedures that are the rather pathetic and largely inefficient or ineffectual
      vanguard that is characterized by so many of our modern and advanced
      treatment protocols. Ladies and gentlemen…I present to you here and now
      the results of our now 40-year war on cancer…and over 50 for heart disease (on that last front, the medical-pharma-food conglomerates foisted margarine, that great bastion of heart-healthy fat which is now
      unanimously villified as one of the most entirely disastrous selections of food to be made (ie., Trans-Fat)…excuse me, but did the public ever get
      any manner of public apology for this “little boo-boo”?…for anyone possibly shocked or wondering why I tossed in the word arrogant with
      respect to allopathic doctors and the medical sciences field at large)
      ….and just where do we stand with heart disease and cancer today? Well
      the rates of such incidents are ever escalating, heads are still being scratched, and palms and coffers yet receiving ample donations for the
      favor of the rather feeble and feckless attempts at relieving the symptoms
      thereof. If one is lucky, they can survive the treatment du jour, and the best of prophylactic measure is handed down to us by an establishment of
      toothless twits, who have their poorly-trained minds stuck in the sands
      of the desert of dollars with which they are so wedded, ignoring the
      needs of those suffering and seeking “benefits” which are actually
      bestowed as so much folly–and more suffering, in far too many instances.

      These are all academically capable people, for the most part, but there
      needs to be art, ethics, and constant curiosity driving anyone so entrusted with our health and very lives. Little of that, currently…but there is some
      in sight, and it is being offered up, by lay-people, even, such as the author of this blog–and reviewer of would-be wonks as the likes of Campbell and his vast array of cohorts and fan-boys and girls, to which
      I, at any rate would place trust in their care for my well being, as I’d have
      so many monkeys watch bunches of bananas for me.

      The first thing anyone sincerely needs to consider, when seeking solutions to health-balancing-and the health disorders-that result from the disruption of, is that they are an individual, and that, further, it would
      be impossible to anticipate a consistent, sustainable approach to healing absent the understanding of what metabolic dynamics are inherently in
      play with regards that individual. Rule Number One: Everyone is different,
      with as diverse dietary needs as there are appearances in humans (well, maybe not nearly that diverse…but there’s lots of different ways the cow
      can eat the cabbage….). Maybe one does better with predominantly plant-based diet…and another shoots great with a mostly fat-and-protein diet of
      animal food (plenty of opportunities for the entire farming community).
      Carbs (from suitable sources…long discussion there) for one, very little for another…results are good with both. Without the understanding of the
      individual metabolic inclinations–which can be reasonably determined
      by methods which undoubtedly could use some help…the nature of all science, which, at it’s best yields the solutions encountered–at that
      point in time of encounter–it changes quick, and although this is a bit
      tough to monetize, what is the objective here?…the patients’ or the practitioners’ well-being? In the origins of traditional Chinese medicine,
      the doctor was never compensated by the patients during times of their
      illness, but rather during periods of good health. Get nuts here, that I just
      harkened the wonders of Chinese medicine (or Ayurvedic) over Western
      methods…’cause I’m not…just the virtues of the sensibilities which have
      been abandoned and supplanted by lack of motivation to find genuine and sustainable approaches to healing. BigPharma cannot survive under the strain of demands to trot out each new medicament they cook up…costs a billion for FDA approval, so they need “blockbuster”s…at any cost. With all
      sincere apologies….the “Miracle Bus” seems to have departed years ago
      …and no more “magic bullets” remians. It would appear that one has to eat
      themselves into sustainably healthy states and outcomes. Food is our best medicine…Dr. Henry Bieler used that as a title 50 years or so back, and Drs. Weston Price, Francis Pottenger, William Kelley, Royal Lee, John Beard, Nicholas Gonzalez, Tom Cowan, Steven Sinatra, and many, many others…but not so many that they so significantly impact the over-all
      picture of health practitioners and research scientists that are actually
      interested in whatever might yield useful and beneficial solutions to the
      overwhelming incidences of health-disorders that plague this “modern
      society” with all it’s myriad labs and production. We know, all too sadly,
      how to enrich ourselves with great wealth…islands and jets if you will,
      but, in the great democracy that is diseases, fall into a heap and often perish in prolonged agony…rich folk and poor folk alike…and so often before what ought be our alloted time…

      Someone tells you by book or advertisement what is best for you to
      eat to achieve optimal health/well-being, and specifically, what classes
      of food to avoid or include (other than all of the food be culled from
      genuinely healthy sources, free of adulterants, toxins, etc.)…keep them
      movin right on by your own horizon…that is, if you really, really, wish
      to keep on living, and in reasonably vibrant health. If in your own mind
      you consider yourself a generality, I’d certainly be surprised to know.
      Amidst all our usual vanities, why is it then, that we succumb to the
      cookie-cutter tools employed to treat our illnesses? I’m much more vain
      than to any longer submit myself to such incredible lack of insight and
      innovation. Please, please, if there is a god who takes active performance (personalized appearances, if you will) in our health…do not let me lose
      consciousness when near unto death, that I might wake to my final hours
      in a hospital…unless I’ve been hit by a falling safe, struck by a meteor or runaway bus, bullet, or elephant, and could possibly be saved
      by a remarkably gifted surgeon…we can sometimes have need for good
      surgical mechanics, as it were…just don’t let them be a plastic surgeon,

  22. Hi Denise,

    I came to your site via that of my good friend Mike Eades. His taking you seriously is an important endorsement.

    Thanks for doing this important work. Very impressive. I second the others who say you have a future in medical science or epidemiology. Keep up the good work!


  23. Hey Denise,

    Great information about the China Study. My wife came home from work today and started talking about this study, I hopped on line and found your response, and was blown away by the amount of data that you put into your response.

    Thank you for providing a great amount of information and website chalk full of information.

    Keep up the great work.

  24. My question is that I live in a place where there is no good source of grass fed naything so the Raw milk isnt really optimal, and the fish are from polluted waters and the meat etc are all raised in sheds and fed on grain. My country is very behind in this aspect. I am high raw vegan now, I feel good, but there has always been part of me and still debating inside about what’s really best as a human species. I avoid all the meat and dairy because of the toxicity from pesticides and hormones issue. I feel it’s better to avoid it altogether than to eat poisoned food. Because I cant resolve it, vegan is where I stay.
    What say you to someone in such a situation?

  25. Your information has changed my views completely, and I can’t thank you enough. I just wanted to ask you, do you eat the raw animal products “raw” or uncoocked? Also i noticed that you don’t eat dairy, have you found something unhealthful about it or are you not eating dairy because it’s hard to find a good source of unhomogenized and unpasteurized dairy products? Also what are your thoughts about whole grains for humans?

  26. Denise,

    I love your stuff on the China Study. So many bad conclusions drawn from this garbage. Its good to see someone trying to separate the wh… um… sort things out. Also, you are one hot turbo nerd.

    1. Denise: “I currently live in Portland, Oregon and work as a freelance writer, teacher, and web designer.”

      Your credentials truly recommend her to discredit someone like dr. Campbell and several other scientists…

      I’m sure she did a lot of experimental scientific research as well…. for a number of years (in the childhood perhaps).

      Excuse my sarcasm, but… anyone could contradict anything in this manner. Only that you don’t have the expertise to support your claims.

      1. Dr. Campbell and his supporters used the time-honored “Argument from authority” reasoning. When an “expert” has that as their only defense, it’s a deflection from the discussion of the facts.

  27. Hi Denise,

    Thanks so much for your all your hard work. I was in the vegan camp and am finding that it does not work well for me. I’m curious about what raw animal foods you eat?

    1. For those who haven’t read it yet, William Davis, MD’s, “Wheat Belly” may be of interest. Modern wheat yes, a plant-food – is a heavily GM-food that gets into a huge range of the processed foods in today’s SAD. Davis points out that the modifications have given us the wonderful breads and pastries we enjoy today by introducing or enhancing the gluten expressed in the DNA of the wheat. Some other nuggets: gluten is addictive – it’s digested to dipeptides that bind to opiate receptors in the brain; it has a higher glycemic index than refined sugars – provoking the insulin-spike and the storage of the excess blood-glucose as fat-cells which, in turn, produce other hormones that cause inflammation and all the other related pathologies that afflict us.

      I am an ancient, omnivore, nerd who has been (ultimately unsuccessfully) battling cancer, using the latest grab-bag of naturopathic and allopathic prescriptions, since diagnosis in 2006. I may still be around 10 years from now but I am not “cured”. The allopathic contingent agrees on that much.

      My formal training included PhD-level courses in multiple-multivariate statistical analysis – including writing my own APL routines and using them for data analysis – to support (or discredit) hypotheses. Later professional efforts have included the use of MANOVA and stepwise multiple regression and principal-cpomnents analyses to support research using the SAS (TM) system and other statistical packages.

      I find Denise’s challenges to Campbell’s China Study quite credible, although I admit I have not yet read her specific paper(s) on that.

      While i believe Dr. Campbell is entitled to be “the voice of authority”, this does not mean that his inferences or methodology should be unchallengeable – even by those who are self-taught in particular areas. The essentials are the willingness and ability to think critically, especially self-critically.

      1. “…gluten is addictive…it has a higher glycemic index than refined sugars…”

        It may or may not be addictive, but your claim that it has a higher glycemic index than refined sugars is really peculiar. It is contrary to common sense and all the data I have encountered, so I think you must have misunderstood something you read.

      2. I am considering purchasing the book “Wheat Belly”, as it does appear to present a lot of compelling research, but I’m surprised that the author makes such a small deal out of refined sugar. From the book preview I found this: “Sure, cutting out refined sugar is probably a good idea, as it provides little or no nutritional benefit and will also impact your blood sugar in a negative way. But for the most bang for your buck, eliminating wheat is the easiest and most effective step you can take to safeguard your health and trim your waistline.”

        My considerable research to date has led me to believe that, as bad as wheat may be, sugar is definitely worse. See this video for why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM. But maybe reading “Wheat Belly” will change my mind…we’ll see…

        1. BTW, I have also been through cancer treatment (for thyroid cancer) and I feel for you. Best of luck with your recovery. Since you’re following this blog, you’re clearly already getting some great nutrition advice. In addition to other basics like exercise and sleep, if you’re interested in energetic and mind-body treatments, I recommend this wonderful book: http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Psychology-Self-Healing-Practices-Bodymind-ebook/dp/B004ZZN134/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411919942&sr=1-4&keywords=energy+psychology

  28. Excellent website! Although I can’t give up grains 100% (social occasions etc) I see a brightness in you I’ve only seen a couple times before in my life. Prob has alot to do with both your diet and having a purpose in life that will benefit all of mankind. I love it when ordinary (though you’re far from ordinary) people figure things out that most experts can’t, then communicate it in a way that experts can’t yet again, because of vested interests and business backlash.

  29. Listening to your Jimmy Moore podcast right now. You did a great job articulating your points. I can totally relate to “not fitting in, liking older people better” (though I’m now one of those older people – not sure how that happened). Hang in there and don’t let the detractors get you down!

    You’re confirming our desire to move to Portland too! :) All the cool people live there!

  30. I think it’s very dangerous that you’ve built a blog that gives nutrition advice, without any credentials in nutrition. I understand that because you’ve read a lot of books and studies, you think you know how to interpret them, but just as I wouldn’t take medical advice from someone who has read a lot of studies on medicine, I wouldn’t take nutritional advice from someone who has no experience practicing nutrition on others. But you’re young, you think you know it all, and I understand. I was the same way before getting my degrees in nutrition. But the truth is, there is no such thing as an ideal diet for everyone. Throughout history many civilizations have thrived on a host of different diets. The factors that contributed to the best health were genes, stress level, physical activity, socioeconomic status, and the variety of foods of which they ate. Some societies ate more meat, some more plants, some more cooked, some less cooked. There are too many factors outside of nutrition to advocate raw diet as being the holy grail of nutrition; nor is it backed by the literature. While reductionist science is not the answer to everything, it has accomplished a lot, and we would not have come this far in healthcare without it. If you want to advocate a raw diet, I would back it up with peer reviewed studies, link to them, and let the reader decide if your interpretation of the study matches with yours. Raw diets may work for some (very few actually), but cooked food and grains has many advantages for some people as well.

    1. “But you’re young, you think you know it all, and I understand. I was the same way before getting my degrees in nutrition.”

      So you’re no longer a know-it-all, but you know it all enough to tell someone else how little she knows? Wouldn’t it be easier to just share what you think you know rather than trying to tell others what you think they don’t know?

    2. Brett, have you even read anything Denise has written? I have never seen her dish out nutritional advice and she certainly doesn’t imply that the raw food diet (or any diet) is for appropriate everyone, if you even bothered to look into her backstory you’d know why. I have seen her point out several times that there is no one diet suited to every individual. Also degrees in nutrition? I have one myself and four years was enough for me, I can’t imagine who would need to do a second one! Furthermore some of the most educated people in nutritional science I have met don’t necessarily have a piece of paper to prove their knowledge. I see what game you’re playing and it’s a nasty one, but you should really do your research first or else you just end up looking silly.

  31. Great dismantling of Campbell’s pseudo-science, I appreciated it.
    I’ve had numerous run-ins with the vegan crowd myself, so it’s always nice to see some common sense out in surf-land.

    But what’s with the pic of the new-age yoga crap on the ocean? You keep doing this stuff and you’ll be back eating granola and tofu in no time. Get out while ya can!

  32. Good to eat raw fruits and vegetables, I can say the same about those. However, I think a very young person like you does not have much right to talk about “I know what is healthy and I have experience”. Let’s wait 30 years or so. And then we will meet and see if you are still alive and if so if you are well.

    At your age I also thought I “know it all”, I was health conscious, superbly fit and “tried it all out”. This however did not prevent my body from developing an incurable and very grave disease. Only reading the book by Dr.T.Colin Campbell saved me at the last possible moment from wheelchair, chemotherapy and possible painful death. Only AFTER I stopped all animal proteins in my diet my health started improving radically. My legs, my legs worked finally.

    You do NOT know how much a person cries, a former fitness fanatic to boot, when one is suddenly able to walk again. All those years of quasi immobility, and somebody like you – who in fact does NOT know – is here and telling another “truth” which will send more people to painful hell. You do not know what pain means, pain each and every day. I wish you never encounter this fate, but so far you are heading in that direction. I was having plenty of allergies myself during my worst time, this is incomparable to real pains and horrible symptoms day after day after day, when one wishes one would be dead and still has to stand up.

    Dr.Campbell is not some saint or superhuman, his book contains as many errors as ANY other fat medical tome. They all contain errors. However, the main thing he shows is as true as can be. My own life and my own mobility are proof of that, each and every day. I am grateful for this person to be this courageous and even to having sacrificed his career and possible wealth to spreading his true findings instead. This man has courage and has knowledge and real experience.

    I am not even a vegan or vegetarian, I only omit animal products for the sole sake of saving my life, literally. I always liked the taste of chicken or fish, but the worst breakdown was after an innocent plate of fried chicken. Raw (!) sushi was also a common contributor to my illness.

    Now all works, and it very clearly and painfully did not work before. Please do not contribute to the nonsense being told on the net, by all the people who not only wish to die under their steak and bacon mountains, but also want the “scientific proof” that they are “healthy” and “do well” and anybody else is an idiot.

    Eating microscopic portions of animal protein will not kill anybody, but eating any more of that is – only – possible under very rare and always secluded (secluded= different evolutionary development) circumstances. Exactly the few Inuit tribes, the ONE Chinese mountain tribe, the ONE African tribe, some Yoga super trained Indian gurus.. they can actually survive on high animal foods. But, it was already proven that those people all have for example extremely enlarged livers, and, they do have such things like arteriosclerosis, only it does not affect them as fast as as the average Homo Sapiens (again: secluded, rare development).

    Inuit/Eskimos develop heart attacks and stroke and all the rest as soon as they eat steaks and chicken, not raw seal blood and raw whale anymore. All those “diets” are extremely secluded extreme examples, and yet all the people go bonkers and “I knew meat is good for me”. It may or may not. It most cases rather not, and that is the TRUTH that Dr.Campbell is talking about.

    You are – still – healthy because you eat copious amounts of fresh produce. This keeps you healthy. I know many many examples of vegans who lived a long and practically disease free life, no matter if raw or not raw vegan (most notably Donald Watson, the founder of the Vegan Society: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Watson). I do not know one single example of somebody who ate animal foods – who would be disease free and live long – except mythological urban legends aka “I knew that nephew of the uncle of my great grandpa, he ate what he wanted and lived healthy 200 years” or similar nonsense told usually when drunk.

    I prefer the LONG TERM evidence, not the SHORT sound bites from young people or short time “successes”. I landed in your page accidentally searching for raw foods and Dr.Campbell, and it is sad that other people will land here too and then get a large dose of bad information.

    So far I am just glad and grateful that people like Dr.Campbell do not give up. His most recent life saved: former president Bill Clinton, who went vegan after reading the book by Dr.Campbell. He lost x pounds and is suddenly fit and lively again (http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/09/21/intv.clinton.blitzer.weight.loss.cnn?hpt=C2)

    Actually I am not really sure that your page is real, and that you are not actually a hired model or otherwise substitute, who poses for somebody else. It is VERY strange that an allegedly young girl, who allegedly studies something unrelated to medicine and biology, is able to write endless pages of highly scientific responses to Dr.Campbell. And has such clear access to additional data that was allegedly not posted in the book. I actually think your page here is a scam, set up to spread more nonsense about the “China Study”. God bless you for that and good luck, I hope it ain’t so :/

    1. “Actually I am not really sure that your page is real, and that you are not actually a hired model or otherwise substitute, who poses for somebody else. It is VERY strange that an allegedly young girl, who allegedly studies something unrelated to medicine and biology, is able to write endless pages of highly scientific responses to Dr.Campbell. And has such clear access to additional data that was allegedly not posted in the book. I actually think your page here is a scam, set up to spread more nonsense about the “China Study”. God bless you for that and good luck, I hope it ain’t so”

      Hmmm. As one who knows Denise outside the confines of this blog let me try to translate the above into language I can understand and address some of your concerns:

      1) You find the young woman in the photographs above remarkably attractive. (She is.)
      2) You are extremely impressed by the quality of the writing in the blog posts, and by the clarity of thought and intellectual prowess they reflect.
      (You’re right again.)
      3) You doubt the woman pictured in the photographs above actually wrote the blog posts, as this would suggest that Denise possesses a Brando-level combo of inner gifts and outer beauty.
      (She did. She does. Life is not fair.)

      I’d like to add one tidbit which may not be apparent to you: Denise works very, very hard on the material presented here. She may be able to take little credit for her looks or her smarts, but the time she puts into this blog–both research and writing–and the effort she expends trying to get the finished project “just right” is, in my opinion, worthy of great respect & admiration.

    2. Kasia,
      I’m 42 years of age, I’ve ‘been through it all’ diet wise, especially in the raw 811 direction. The best advice is you have to get in tune with what is good for you. It’s a matter of quantity, balance, and quantity. I find animal foods, meat, eggs, milk, butter, are good for me, just as fruits, vegetables, seeds, etc. are good for me, even vodka, whiskey, and beer, and of course water, tea, coffee-chicory…..and the point is with any of these, you consume only what feels right for you to perform well in life. Btw, alcoholic beverages can be very beneficial to peoples’ health in small to moderate amounts without any inebriation or tipsiness. Get in tune, no rules, just right. Reject or reduce what doesn’t work for you, and continue with what does.

  33. Thanks for all the research, time and energy you put into this. I am eating mostly raw now. I have had some amazing results and avoided surgery because of changing my diet to raw fruits, vegetables, seeds and nuts. I am not sure how great it is for the long haul though. I would like to know which raw animal products work well for you. I really like what you said about not liking labeling. I am there too. Thank you for using your giftedness to help so many. I live across the river from you in Vancouver. :o)

  34. “I eat too much fruit to fit into the “raw paleo” category and too much animal food to fit into the “raw vegan” category, so I float somewhere between, choosing foods based both on research and on how my body responds to them. I don’t care for labels, and I’m more interested in results…”

    Amen sister! If there is one thing I believe when dealing with the complexities of (personal) nutrition is that a cookie cutter approach does not work for everyone. As a competitive club cyclist and amateur athlete I switched over to the principles of Paleo Nutrition last winter in an attempt to zero in my fitness before the 2010 local race season. It was such a success in terms of weight loss, performance and general wellbeing that I am now a firm advocate in a “simple” WOE less the processing and additives found in the modern Western diet.

    My challenge is finding an individual dietary niche that supports my active lifestyle and keeps me happy and healthy. As a result I also “float” between categories especially in terms of recovery foods during the competitive seasons. Sometimes I am not sure what is harder…..zooming in the nutrition that works for ME or dealing with preconceptions that athletes can’t eat raw, low carb diets and remain competitive.

    Great blog……glad I stumbled upon it. Keep up the good work.

  35. I’m intrigued by your blog!

    I eat Primal/ Paleo. While I’ve tried raw paleo before and don’t think it’s sustainable, I’m still oddly drawn to it (must be the prospect of eating sashimi and steak tartar, my two favourite things to eat).

    I’m gonna have to subscribe :3

  36. Hmmm, let’s see… should I take the nutritional advice of an English major/writer/teacher/web designer or that of a Cornell Ph.D./M.I.T. – Virginia Tech, nutritional biochemistry researcher.? Hmmm?

    I will say, you are hands down infinetly more attractive than Dr. Campbell.

    1. Remember that Bill Gates was just a Harvard college drop-out when he created Microsoft. Mark Zuckerberg was just an undergraduate at Harvard when he created Facebook that has over a 500 million users. Both of them were the youngest billionaires ever.

      1. I should have made it clear that Bill Gates is presently a college drop-out as far as education goes. Also Mark Zuckerberg dropped out of Harvard after creatying Facebook so he is also a college drop-out as far as education goes. I just hope that college does not hurt Denise Minger’s natural awesome intelligence and curiosity. She may someday have a profound influence on the world.

  37. Lovely though she may be, this blog would be a lot more credible if the author’s profile wasn’t a narcissistic MySpacesque photo gallery. Definitely turned me off from reading any further.

    1. Denise could probably defend this choice better than I can, but I think it’s pretty important to have such a photo gallery in this blogworld of diet/nutrition. At pretty much every such blog I read, I scrutinize the photos of the authors/ascribers of the blog to see what their faces, skin, and bodies look like. Denise’s photos show that she is lean, clean, vibrant, and healthy and in that sense it’s helpful to have them.

      1. Denise’s photos show that she is lean, clean, vibrant, and healthy and in that sense it’s helpful to have them.

        She is clean and vibrant. But she also looks incredibly underweight and emaciated, particularly in the thrid photo. Her bones are sticking out all over. It’s not a look i’d aspire to. It doesn’t look overtly healthy to me.

        1. You are joking, right? If not — you are a very negative, uninformed person (I would love to see your picture . . .). She is absolutely gorgeous and very healthy. Look at how clear her skin and hair are!

  38. Hi there,

    good website, its direct and honest. Really like the interviews you are refreshing and full of energy.

    Think though raw milk, a bit of meat (only eat special organic grass/herb fed stuff though(kag freiland/demeter) and some wild/sweetwater fish, is very good for my energy and happiness.

    Keep up the great work and greetings from Switzerland

  39. Why should it surprise anyone that the democratization of knowledge and power of publishing with little censorship on the internet that bypasses traditional gatekeepers should rattle a few chains?

    Denise Minger has performed the equivalent of Martin Luther nailing his 95 Theses on the cathedral doors of vegetarian orthodoxy.

    Attempts to discredit her criticism of the China Study based on the youthfulness and relative attractiveness displayed in her pictures is stupid and idiotic. Does one discredit Stephen Hawking based on his physical appearance? Surely the veracity of thoughts and ideas are more important than the packaging of the vessel who brings the message?

    Those who believe Campbell trumps Minger on the sole basis of peer reviewed studies published better hold on to their hats. I suggest there is work underway that will address that. Peer review however, is not the “be all and end all” of academic integrity. Those who believe peer reviewed papers are selected and published based solely on merit are *extremely* naive. In every field of research publication, there are stakeholders who have competing agendas. Many good ideas never find publication due to the forces involved behind the scenes. This argument of mine however, is an argument from silence.

    Albert Einstein said “Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.” The China Study is not a closed canon of sacred scripture except to people with cult-like tendencies. Minger used the raw data, analyzed it and regraphed it to draw associations. If her analysis does not hold up, the collective voice of the internet will expose her faulty reasoning. She deserves an unequivocal “FAIL!” if that happens.

    Right now however, I think the Campbell is looking more like one Ancel Keys from a while ago. The vegetarian myth is going the way of the lipid hypothesis.


    1. “. . .your eye color changed?” I’m not sure of the reason, but I work in the School of Classical Chinese Medicine in Portland, OR and I’ve learned from the Chinese doctors there that this can be a common effect of diet change and also of overall health changes. The study of Iridology examines the reasons.

    2. Hi Levi,
      My guess is the eye color change happened from consuming high levels of glutathione (abundant in many raw foods). Glutathione inhibits melanin production and could conceivably lighten pigmentation on the body. I “lost” a few freckles as well, probably for the same reason. If you Google “eye color change raw food,” you’ll get tons of hits — it’s a pretty common side effect. :)

      1. Has the color of your eyes remain the same or has it returned to your normal color since you stopped being a strict raw food diet? I figure having high levels of glutathione is better than having low levels. If eye color changes, so be it as long as there aren’t detrimental side effects.

      2. Wow, I thought – I – was the only person on the planet whose eye colour had changed (without a blow to the head). This is bloody interesting.

        My eyes as a kid: Brown
        (Standard Australian diet. LOADS of dairy and wheat)

        My eyes as a teenager/young adult: Brown/Hazel
        (Same as above)

        My eyes in my 30s: Changed to Hazel/Green
        (very little meat/fat. Lots of grain. LOTS of coffee, little sleep)

        My eyes in my late 40s: Green with a slight hazel centre-ring.
        (Have been Paleo-ish for 18mths)

  40. Please contact me if interested in writing things together. You can find about me from a search of Siguel and fat, or Google Scholar search or google books (many people cite my research).

    This is what I wrote for NYTimes
    I invented technology to measure fatty acids in humans and studied the fatty acid composition of thousands of human samples. I reported that most adult Americans have substantial deficiencies of omega-3s, excess of trans. Some have deficiencies of omega-6s. Among others, I lectured to physicians, cardiologists, government officials and nutrition experts in the USA and Canada, and managers of large corporations such as ADM. I explained my opinion, theories and research why the USDA pyramid and nutrition recommendations (current and past) as well as the National Cholesterol program, NIH and AHA guidelines were misleading and incorrect. Briefly, the typical American diet is high in processed carbohydrates, fat and calories. Human biochemistry is such that excessive calories from any source (fat, protein, carbohydrates) are converted and stored as saturated or monounsaturated fatty acids. The major abnormality in the US are deficiencies and imbalances of essential fats. Correcting these abnormalities is very difficult. It is not enough to eat more oils or supplements. The body is an extremely complex machine and it is practically impossible to correct abnormalities by eating too much of selected supplements (even if we carried portable PCs all the time, we can’t do all the calcuations). One would also need to do numerous blood tests, which are difficult to interpret.
    Instead, I proposed that we eat a diet close to its natural state. A healthy diet should be rich in cells, because each animal species eats cells. While plants can make many things from scratch, humans exchanged that ability for higher brain power. We eat cells with preformed substances to avoid the need to make then and instead devote resources to make the complex substances needed by the brain.
    I proposed that a diet rich in vegetables simplifies body processing, leading to reduced wear and tear and toxic byproducts (and lower risk of cancer, see my published papers). Plants are rich in nutrients, linoleic (w6) and linolenic acid (w3). Plants do not make the complex w3s found in fish such as EPA and DHA. There have been reports that humans need to eat them. To provide them, many supplements are sold with w3s and w6s (and some infant formulas now have these w3s derived, sometimes, from algae). Contrary to some reports, my research, based on the biochemical analysis of blood samples in humans, found that most people can make enough EPA and DHA from plant fatty acids. There are several caveats or requirements, such as the need to have adequate intake of other nutrients, no substantial disease (patients with severe malabsorption, such as Crohn’s Disease, may not be able to live well on an exclussive plant based diet).
    Overall, my research found that eating whole foods, meaning foods close to their natural state, with plenty of cells and minimal processing (to eliminate infections or for other reasons) is likely the best way to increase longevity and reduce disease. This diet may need supplements, periodically, with animal foods such as beef and fish (or perhaps insects, but that is rarely practical today).
    In discussions about chronic disease, federal, state and local government deficits, trade deficits, and health reform, I propose the following. A HUGE chunk of health expenditures (and a cause of deficits) is the treatment of obesity and its consequences (diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol) with undesirable food and drugs that in my opinion treat the symptoms but not the underlying cause. A major shift to a plant based diet would dramatically improve health outcomes for the majority of people in the US, lower health care costs, reduce government and trade deficits, AND increase employment (reasons are beyond this comment).
    We can improve health outcomes, lower costs and reduce deficits if governments implement health plans that reward healthy eating. It is easy to do and would save 100s of billions per year. Michelle Obama organic garden is the step in the right direction. We need more vegetable gardens and fewer imported pills. Unfortunately, the profits and consulting fees from growing vegetables are almost zilch (compared to the 100s of billions from organ transplants and repairs, drug treatment, etc.).
    Health care reform that fails to consider these issues is doomed to fail and cause undesirable health outcomes and higher government and trade deficits.

    Readers can visit my web site essentialfats.com, read my book (see Siguel at amazon.com), read excerpts from many books that quote me in Google books, find my professional articles at NIH medline or google scholar.
    Eduardo Siguel, MD, PhD

  41. I LOVE your blog! I heard about it while watching a video of Dr. Mercola interviewing Chris Masterjohn, and I will gladly pass it on via my website and my Facebook account.

    I delved into vegetarianism in my mid-late 20’s, and it ruined my health (of course, I did it wrong). It has been 14 years, and what I have realized after finally finding a great Naturopathic doctor and doing a ton of research on my own, is that it totally skewed my hormones, rendered me B12 and iron deficient etc. etc. As a result, I lost quite a bit of hair which is finally starting to grow back.

    Thanks for publishing easily accessible, relevant and TRUTHFUL information about the vegetarian movement and highlighting the fact that “studies” are often done incorrectly and statistics can be manipulated.


  42. “Too much fruit to be raw paleo”? I didn’t think paleo restricted fruit? I can certainly understand the not bothering with labels thing, though.

    I’d be interested at some point in seeing your perspective on the advantages of raw vs. cooked meat and raw vs. cooked vegetables.

  43. So, you are crunching correlation coefficients and giving nutritional advice with your English degree? Ummm, let’s see.

    -Girl with English degree, or knighted PHD from Oxford?
    -Girl with English degree, or biochemistry professor with 300+ peer reviewed publications?

    I think I’m placing my bets on the number crunchers and scientists of the China Study. I have a masters degree in statistics and agree with Campbell. You are not qualified to be crunching numbers. Until you do the training, you will not get taken seriously except, perhaps, by those who have a vested interest or ideological motivation for denying the evidence.

    1. Geyer….are you aware that many people beside Minger have come to the same conclusions as she- that Campbell profoundly misrepresented what was found in the China Study? Including doctors and people with credentials? Are you aware that the researcher working alongside Campbell on the China Study (Richard Peto) does not agree that the study found links between animal foods and disease? Do you think he’s wrong too?

      If I always listened to people with credentials, I would be on statins, blood pressure meds, antidepressants and eating grains every day, like those qualified researchers tell us we should do….you can have peer reviewed publications and still be an idiot, trust me….

      Have you yourself looked at the China study data and can say definitively that Minger is wrong….or are you a vegan ideologue like the rest.

    2. Anyone can crunch numbers–you don’t have to have a degree in statistics. It’s a matter of taking the time to do such an in depth and thorough job like Denise has.

    1. Well, perhaps not ‘Anyone’, but Colton A. “Colt” Harris-Moore, a.k.a. the “Barefoot Bandit”, purportedly ‘learned how to fly small planes by reading aircraft manuals and handbooks and playing flight simulator computer games’[*]… sans the ‘eight years of avid research and self-education’, by the way.

      After perusing (what seems to be) your lovely website, it appears that you are familiar with the following quote [?] –

      ‘What spirit is so empty and blind, that it cannot recognize the fact that the foot is more noble than the shoe, and skin more beautiful that [sic] the garment with which it is clothed?”

      …and the brain more useful than the degrees we behold?


      [*] Wikipedia

    2. Did you know that Michael Faraday wasn’t a scientist, had no formal training, never went to school, and yet he is the “father of electromagnetism”.
      His valuable contributions to science are unobjectionable.
      He is the inventor of the electric motor, he discovered benzene and created an early form of the Bunsen burner.

      What about the the Odone family? Augusto and Michaela Odone’s son Lorenzo was diagnosed with ALD (adrenoleukodystrophy) an incurable illness that slowly incapacitates you until you die.
      They decided to not give up and even though they had no formal training at all in biochemistry, they fought restlessly against academia by self-learning in libraries and proposing a possible solution. And against all odds, they succeeded creating something revolutionary, which is know known as “Lorenzo’s Oil”.
      Although it doesn’t cure it, this is the only treatment possible up to this day, to delay the progression of this illness.

      What about Jane Goodall, who without formal scientific training she ended up becoming the prime authority in primatology, ethnology, anthropology.
      She is the only woman who was able to get a PhD without college education.

      Not enough? Do you want more examples? What about the founder of Hyundai who never ever had formal education, not even elementary school, and yet he created a multinational conglomerate. Or Samsung, Lee Byung Chul is a dropout of the university of Japan.
      Or Sohichiro Honda, he only attended to a mechanic class in the University to learn how to build a piston by himself. Then he dropped out to create Honda Motors.

      Not enough? What about a kid whose parents thought he was mentally challenged because he started to talk late. A High School dropout. Later frustrated math and physics professor who was working at the Patent Office as a clerk.
      This insignificant “nobody” would attempt to defy the paradigms of physics. That average chump was Albert Einstein.

      Those who are brilliant don’t need to be baby-fed with information, those who are brilliant crave information, they are highly resourceful and there is never enough.
      Restless, chronic curiosity is what drives them and makes them feel fulfilled. These guys and girls are the ones who aren’t understood within the system, can’t take things for granted, and can’t obey a stupid rule.

      People like this girl; autodidacts, nonconformists, and rebels are the ones who are building the future for you.

      1. May I add Jean Pierre Fermat? Fermat was schooled in civil law, but he co-developed the theory of probability with Blaise Pascal (The Unfinished Game by Keith Devlin).

        Are we to judge by credentials? Or should the works be judged for their merit? Res ipsa loquitur as the Romans would say. I read both the China Study book and this blog. I like the blog better.

    3. I hear what you say, and to a certain extent agree.

      But some people (like Denise) seems “talented” in this, and has the passion required for it. Moreover, she has and still is being invited to talks on nutrition (by the experts)

      I’m not trying to say ure wrong Geyer… I just think it might not be fully accurate to put a blanket statement as such :D

  44. Aw, this was a very nice post. In idea I wish to put in writing like this additionally – taking time and precise effort to make an excellent article… however what can I say… I procrastinate alot and not at all appear to get something done.

  45. Hi, i been a raw vegan on n off for a while, but my friend just started, the only reason she is doing it is because of the eye color changing myth. do you have any before and after so i could show her that is not possible. she wants to go from brown to green which is crazy. I just don’t want her to be disappointed but to do it for the right reasons like better health etc.

  46. The Fallacy of the Paleo/Caveman diet

    One of the more popular diets in the media is the Paleolithic diet, that our long ago ancestor’s ate, before the industrial revolution and well before pocket societies were established. This diet has received much attention as of late, following the release of Dr. Loren Cordain’s book ‘The Paleo Diet.’ Many readers use Dr. Cordain’s book as their justification to consume a high meat, high fat diet, despite a mountain of evidence indicating that meat dominate diets are actually the problem and result in premature aging and disease. 

    Many people have come to the conclusion that our ancestors predominately lived on animal flesh because the bones of animals were discovered near campsites. The remains of plants do not survive in same way that bones do. It would be more plausible that, our ancestors, out of necessity, ate locally growing wild plants and moved about to locate them. They killed and ate animals when they could, but these opportunities were few and far between. 

    These stone age peoples were not the carnivores that the proponents claim. The reason for this is; hunting and killing animals is not easy and those humans were bipedal beings who were considerably slower than the animals that they were seeking to eat and they had no technology to assist in hunting and killing prey (they had no means of storing food for any period of time either). Visualise yourself chasing down a beast with your bare feet/hands and flat blunt teeth- this would actually be quite amusing!

    The main problem with Cordain, one of the leading expert proponents in the use of low grain and natural meat diets, is that the basis of his theory has nothing with science to do as it is impossible to falsify. We will never learn what our ancestors ate in the caves or elsewhere, in particular not how much. Neither will we learn if their diet was beneficial or harmful to their health. Said that, I think it is a good idea to stick to natural food undisturbed by the food industry.

    One of her other arguments against Cordain is that paleolithic time was about 2 million years and that there (of course) was an immense variation in these people´s diet. This is also what has been observed among present days´ primitive people. Which of their diets should we choose? Throughout history humans have migrated all over the planet, at times enduring scarcity and famine, conversely experiencing much abundance. Just because humans consumed a particular diet (due to availability or lack thereof) does not mean that following these dietary patterns is optimal or consistent with health longevity. Therefore one cannot extrapolate from the ancestral diet to today’s circumstances.

    This is somewhat irrelevant in that we are not hunter/gatherers or cave dwellers anymore and humans are not dying of infectious disease or starvation, but of disease’s of dietary excess, body pollution and poor lifestyle choices. Cave dwellers didn’t live long enough to experience degenerative disease.

    In my opinon the main argument against cavemen diet and anti-grain diets is the fact that some of the healthiest cultures around the world consume small amounts animal foods and always have (2-3 serves per week), but the majority of total weekly calories consist of wide variety of unrefined plant based material, with organic animal foods used as condiments. In John Robbins book Healthy at 100, he presents the research on the worlds longest living and healthiest peoples such as, the Hunzan’s, Abkhasians , Okinawans and Vilcabamban’s. The average individual in these cultures lives to 110 years of age, happy, vibrant, active and coherent. They consume low fat plant based diets, with little or no meat.

 For example, the Vilcabambans enjoy organically-grown fruits and vegetables along with whole grains for plenty of fiber. They eat meat only about once a month, and their diet is low in fat.

    In contrast, there is no successful population that lives or has lived on a meat-based diet!!!!!!! For example the Inuit Greenlanders have the worst longevity statistics in North America and this can be due to their high consumption of meat and low consumption of fresh whole foods. Legitimate research shows that these people have higher rates of cancer and die 10 years younger than the average general population of Canada.
    Similarly, the Maasai in Kenya are a tribe that hunt and eat a diet rich in meats and wild game and they have the worst life expectancy in the modern world. The average lifespan for a Masai women is 49 and for men it is 45 and if they reach the age of 60 they are considered to be very old. Adult mortality rates figures on the Masai, show that they have 50% chance of dying before the age of 59. Although the Masai’s short life spans is linked to their harsh living conditions, their diets high in meat and low in fresh whole foods still take their toll. Dr. George Mann, who once was an advocate of the Masai diet, went extremely quiet several decades ago when he conducted autopsies on 50 Masai men in their 40’s who had the atherosclerosis of men in their 90’s. If these men hadn’t died so young, they would have had the same degenerative disease that we do in Western countries!!!!!!!

    Scientists have now been able to conclusively determine the best diet for ideal health by measuring the diet/lifestyle versus the disease rates of various populations world wide. We now know that greatly increasing the consumption of fruits, vegetables, legumes, raw nuts, seeds and whole grains (and greatly decreasing the consumption of animal products) offers profound increased longevity potential. This is due in part to a broad symphony of life-extending phytochemical nutrients that a vegetable-based diet contains.

    1. Actually, Micalr, there has never been a vegetarian society. But that would be a pesky fact. Who knows? Maybe the Australian Banana-Eating Bicyclists will end that sorry streak of failure.

      hunting and killing animals is not easy

      Nonsense. Killing animals at unprecedented rates is one thing humans rock at. When we enter new continents, vast species of animals disappear right down our throats. Among the vanished:

      * Woolly mammoths

      *Columbian mammoths

      * giant deer

      * woolly rhinos

      * American mastodons

      * North American cheetah

      * three types of ground sloths, including one approaching the size of modern-day elephants

      * glyptodonts

      * giant armadillos

      * several species of horses

      * four species of pronghorn antelopes

      * three species of camels

      * several species of oxen

      * giant bison

      * seven species of North & South American elephants,

      * most of Australia’s large reptiles, birds and mammals, including some early kangaroos.


  47. Be prepared… a new food documentary is coming out Forks over Knives that promotes the China Study as its source & wants all of us on “plant based” diets. You will probably see a huge jump in traffic. I am not linking to the movie since I don’t want to promote it.

  48. Hy
    I read your blog and find fantastic how you try to sty away from bias about diet, and how you try to figure out what is best for you :-)

    I`m not vegetarian, contrary, I`m strong meat eater mostly low carb. But a try to eat es mach row food as possible and choose wild and pasture fed animals, and row diary product which is luckily easy in Switzerland
    What I saw is that you eat row fish.
    I read in the “Nutrition Traditions” row fish receipt, but still except herrings and tuna I can`t convince myself to eat white fish.
    Have you eat fish like cod, or flounder , what kind it should be, only fresh one or it can be even deep frozen on the ship. Hear is hard to finde wild fresh fish.
    And what about fish from lakes?

  49. I am not sure if anyone has asked this yet or if it was answered because I don’t want to read ALL of the comments but I was wondering if the raw food diet really does change your eye color. I am just curious and if so, how?

  50. Neisy (is it?), That you were an English major explained, in part, my puzzlement at how one so young (I know now you’re a 35-year old woman trapped in the body of a 23-year old…sorry to hear of that…) could fashion concepts and even hum-drum science so succinctly and eloquently as well. Yet, of course, you have learned that when it comes to the perceived attack on one’s core…their beliefs…and, interestingly, with food and diet, no less, that, albeit many fans and admirers present, so do the detractors–and in some instances, what would appear as the very Mongol Hordes themselves.

    Your most critically intuitive and sensibly derived impetus–to “remain in your own back-yard”–is perhaps key to those successes which you have thus far managed with regards your own personal health and homeostasis….
    nothing so easy for most to encounter, and especially on a (correct me if I’m wrong here) a somewhat independent basis (of course, all ways are the queen’s ways, and we all rely on the wisdom-or folly–passed on from others,
    so it is key to remain humble and appreciative). You have my attention, particularly for your mention of the approach to healing and health is best
    understood on an individual basis. You are so keen as to observe that there
    is no optimal or “perfect” diet for any one individual. As a matter of fact, if
    one is so trained or attuned, a good deal of flux might be requisite with one’s food selections, so as to optimize health outcomes.

    Accordingly, the only tome I am yet aware of which specifically addresses the issue of individualized dietary insight, is The Metabolic Typing Diet by Wolcott and Fahey, and perhaps you have already read and explored it’s contents. If not, perhaps you will, as I and many others have, find it to be of
    significant value in helping to determine that which (from my own experience, anyway) our own intuitive judgments are so often incapable of
    beneficially guiding us towards when it comes to nutritional selections. Perhaps we are a tad too removed from our extraordinarily developed–over
    say, a million (or two) years, and that our rather sudden shifts in diet–first, with the advent of agriculture and animal herding 8 to 10 thousand years ago, and most dramatically/severely over the past several hundred years with the
    rapid advancement of food distribution and processing via industrialization–might have basically eradicated our ability to sense what might be best for us to eat. Further our own hybridization (it ain’t the match, but the mix, more & more…) dictates some novel approaches to determining optimal diet approaches & strategizing. So one of the newest, and hip words in this arena
    is Nutrigenomics. Wears well enough for my tastes, at any rate.

    Further, I am intrigued by the photo and comment attributed to that photo of
    your left eye, it would be? Besides revealing a most fetching and bright character, you make mention of the increase of GSH production having changed your eyes’ previously brown shade to a hazel one. Hell, you could perhaps figure out a way to sell this to the crowds who’ve been troubling with the oft bizarre results evidenced with contact lenses….or not. This is interesting and I shall look further into this notion…or is it a statement of established studies?

    I, myself, do considerable amounts of “independent” study/research, as my own health has been more-than-compromised-and-challenged over the past 25 years (if not, indeed, life-long), and I certainly wish that I could as you so
    brilliantly do, entail that which has been my experiences. I will probably never get “that book” written…but I certainly look forward to reading one that you will undoubtedly pen…and a most significantly beneficial one as well, such is the focus that you have developed at such an early stage…well, I guess 35 is near mid-life, so that might be a bit too much of a gush, huh?

    I was drawn to your own site by the subject of your review/critique of the
    boorish “science” –or lack thereof–of Campbell’s study. Truly, the man
    is a legend in his own mind, and in the absence of so many minds of others that fight so valiantly?–or mindlessly–in defence of his work, honor, and, no doubt, burgeoning coffers. It was the glowing admiration accorded your (however naively initiated and executed) review on your blog here, by Chris Masterjohn, who is a most gifted young lion in today’s world of nutritional
    science…I don’t imagine he is so often so effusive, but he is a most intelligent and expressive writer as well as formidable researcher–his lecturing is exhilarating from my own experience, by content, speed, and
    precision. Come to think of it, if you don’t mind, you two ought to meet, if
    you haven’t already, other than by internet, of course. Some things can’t be
    achieved on the net, y’know (I’ve yet to get good food on the net…although
    I do order some for shipment with that resource).

    Keep the glutathione in good supply (along with the rest of requisite litany
    of macro and micro-nutrients)…or, eat well, and prosper.

    All the best, especially inHealth,

    Mark Lebovitz, AHFC (Aging Health Food Chef…or Cook, as I’ve no credentials)

  51. There has got to be a connection somewhere in this persons life with the meat or dairy industry- in the first place she went on such a kooky diet from the beginning that she did not really give veing a true vegan -or even a vegetarian- a chance. When man was created he was given a diet that was for him the diet of perfect health. This has never changed. This young person needs to do a lot more research before making some of the statements that she has. I wonder about the other factors in her life which cause her to make some of the statements that she has made There are many influences in this world to keep mankind from being the healthy being that God created, and these will always be at work to prevent man from reflectingGhandiwork.

    1. Denise has been so detailed and transparent about her dietary journey including her reasons, that accusations of corruption can only be coming from your own mind. Since you seem to believe all people say whatever they are paid to say, and not what they have arrived at through independent thought and research, who is paying you? Is it this “Ghandiwork” group?

  52. Hi there,

    Would you mind talking more about your eye color change, how long did it take? What did you eat, etc…

    looks great.

    thank you

  53. This is gonna take a while to dig through here :)
    Keep up your great work, great blog – thorough, unbiased and yet personal.

  54. Hi! I would like to try the raw food diet to make me feel better! I am 14 years old and for many years I have been eating tons of junk food. I was wondering if it is safe for me to pursue the raw food diet at my age? Also does the eye color really change? My mom is caucasion with light green eyes, but my dad is japanese with brown eyes. It would be great if you could respond!

  55. Denise,
    Your blog is great. I think I’m in love. Thank you for your work. Your thoughtful, unemotional, and yet personable approach to questions of health and nutrition are a breath of fresh air in this ongoing conversation. As a physician, I only wish that more people took this approach toward the care of themselves.
    Keep it up.

  56. This is the best news I’ve received in a while! Death by Food Pyramid is going to be published by Mark Sisson! This almost makes up for agonizing wait and mischievous teasing you’ve done us all for your wheat post. Where do I pre-order my copies?

  57. I’m blown away by your site, Denise, and I’m very excited to start reading. Can’t wait until your book comes out. I hope it will be something I can hand to my friends when they critique my primal/paleo WOE. Very glad I found your site!

    1. I am not impressed with this blog, nor with the author’s expertise. Eight years of self-education and anecdote do not take the place of rigorous science.

  58. I read your blog for the first time. I have the nicknames, “Raw Milkman” and “Aquaman” because I have a raw milk/organic milk and dairy foods with farm fresh foods delivery system via a milkman delivery in Fairfield, Connecticut. I have also started a water business for Spring Water and Ionization of waters thru some technology means. I am also a long distance open water ocean swimmer champion and my longest open water swim non-stop was 15 hours. Good Hydration is very essential. Constantly searching for ways to be ‘in the flow” and so I thank you for Blogging. Great fuel for thought. You can be my Little Mermaid. See http://www.themilkmancompany.com. – Ed Hartz

  59. Hi Denise, Just found your site via Mark’s Dailly Apple. Have to say how good your writing is. You make the sometimes difficult science stuff very accessible and readable. Thanks and keep it coming!

  60. Quite the blog here! So much focus on the China Study stats…

    Curious to know your thoughts on animal proteins, especially diary, and auto-immune diseases, particularly type 1 diabetes and multiple sclerosis…2 rare cases where there is dietary intervention data showing impact on disease progression.

  61. As someone who has gone through their fair share of self experimentation and paid for it by giving myself a more then a few food allergies/sensitivities. I can appreciate your journey because it seems to very similar to my own. Although it took me a bit longer to do so, I ended up coming to similar conclusions at least when it came to my own health and getting myself back on track by pouring over research and many different types of diets. It’s nice to know that I’m not the only one who takes such interest in experimenting on myself. Most of my friends just think I’m nuts haha. Anyway I enjoy the blog and I’ll be sure to check back from time to time.

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