Fat, Diabetes, and “Sinister Involvement in Wikipedia”

27 08 2011

Could it be true? Three blog entries in four weeks, instead of my typical month-long lulls of silence? Has this blog been hijacked by an evil but prolific employee of Minger, Inc.?

Don’t worry; I’ll vanish again soon. I’m mostly here to pass on the link to a guest post I wrote for Mark’s Daily Apple about the “fatty food gives you diabetes!” study that came out this month:

If you read the link above, you’ll notice that a major component of the “high fat” mouse diet was hydrogenated coconut oil. After the article went up on MDA, I got an email from Sally Fallon with some neat background on the role of this ingredient rodent studies:

Just a clarification on fully hydrogenated coconut oil.  This is used in experiments because it is the only fat that can be fully hydrogenated and still be soft enough to eat–because the fatty acids are short.  If you fully hdrogenate lard, it will be hard as a rock, even at room temperature.

Full hydrogenation just produces saturated fatty acids–partial hydrogenation produces trans fats.  So technically fully hydrogenated fats are not such a bad thing, they are just saturated fatty acids (usually esterified with unsaturated fatty acids).  But of course, there will be lots of impurities and chemicals from the processing, so this begs the question of why not just eat regular saturated fats.

Fully hydrogenated coconut oil was developed so researchers could test fatty acid deficiency. . . . not the effects of saturated fats.  If the only fat given to rats or mice is fully hydrogenated coconut oil, researchers can bring on EFA deficiency.  Today most researchers don’t have a clue about what the product was developed for, and fully hydrogenated coconut oil is sold and used in all sorts of experiments that have nothing to do with fatty acid deficiency.

How interesting! Hydrogenated coconut oil is incredibly common in lab diets for rodents, but its original purpose was to induce EFA deficiency—not to represent the effects of saturated fat in the diet. (In the context of this particular study, Chris Masterjohn noted that EFA deficiency probably wasn’t a factor because the mouse diet was supplemented with soybean oil. But it’s good info for future reference, nonetheless.)

Ancestral Health Symposium videos are up!

In case you haven’t seen ‘em yet, the presentations from the Ancestral Health Symposium are now viewable on Vimeo. Check ‘em out here, and see the accompanying PowerPoint slides here. (My “How to win an argument with a vegetarian” speech is here. In retrospect, especially after reading the comments on an article that summarized my talk, a more appropriate title might’ve been “How to win an argument with a vegetarian who thinks they’re healthier than you because they don’t eat meat, but not with vegetarians who only avoid meat for ethical reasons and think you’re scum no matter what you tell them about health.” Alas.)

As I understand it, the current videos will be edited sometime in the future to incorporate the PowerPoint slides.

AHS, meet WFF.

To balance out the paleo-ness that rocked the West Coast this month, New York just hosted the week-long Woodstock Fruit Festival—essentially the low-fat, raw vegan counterpart of the Ancestral Health Symposium, featuring less beef jerky and a whole lot more durian. Dietary disagreements aside, there seems to be a shared paleo/fruity emphasis on fitness—and after perusing some photos of the event, I noticed at least one person wearing Vibram FiveFingers. Will minimalist footwear be the bridge that unites these rival communities? Only time (and forefoot strikes) will tell.

Sinister Involvement in Wikipedia!

Despite what it may seem, I honestly don’t spend all day refreshing the China Study Wikipedia page, hungrily waiting for drama to emerge. But I do snoop around there whenever I see blog traffic coming from Wikipedia.com, since it usually means someone added my critique and the vegan moderators haven’t yanked it out yet.

Indeed, a wave of Wiki traffic last night led me to a new “Criticism” section with this interesting blurb (that link will probably stop being valid very quickly):

There is some criticism for the book, as well. Dinise Minger has written several times, including her Formal Analysis and Response, about her interpretation of the data presented in the book, and makes the claim that many of the conclusions drawn by Campbell are ill-founded.

I don’t know who Dinise is, but apparently she’s trying to pass this blog off as her own. But that’s not the exciting part. I also checked out the China Study “talk” page and found a paragraph full of impeccable insight and wisdom. I don’t trust things to not magically disappear from Wikipedia, so I took a screen to preserve this epic moment:

If you don’t feel like adding an extra mouse click to your day, here’s the relevant bit; emphasis mine:

Sinister involvement in Wikipedia

I think there is something seriously wrong going on with regard to this article. It has been put up for deletion and has also been marked as relatively unimportant. This is quite surprising, since the book talks about the most important epidemiological study ever undertaken. I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but there is a deeper issue her [sic] of sinister interests manipulating Wikipedia articles. In particular, in the case of this article, Wikipedia is highly vulnerable to sophisticated manipulation by the pharmaceutical industry and the meat industry. Such anti-vegetarian economic interests may be subtly suppressing this article. –Westwind273 (talk) 21:52, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Now it all makes sense. The nomination for deletion, the removal of all China-Study-related criticism, the seemingly biased patrolling of vegan moderators… it’s all been carefully orchestrated by the meat industry! Such an elaborate scheme must be financially draining, though. I wonder if that’s why Farmer Bob stopped sending me my checks?

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59 responses

27 08 2011
Pamela P

Very entertaining, as always, Denise. And I’m glad to know about the Woodstock Fruit Festival. I might just have to head there next year!

27 08 2011
James

You’re a peach. It may not be them against us but we definitely are trying to communicate across a great divide with quite a muddled middle. Even the shouting and name calling is still a form of communication: we’re still talking. Just keep doing what you’ve been doing for a while. Word has been getting out far and wide. Just listened to a Dutch radio broadcast: Healthradio and your name came up …again.

27 08 2011
Alex

I love the durian link!

27 08 2011
E.J. Apostrophe

The length people will go to protect their sacred cow (“China Study”) is both daunting and disheartening. Thank you, Densie, for taking the time to expose C.S. and to offering red flags to discerning individuals.

27 08 2011
sundaemon

Will you marry me?

9 02 2012
duane

me too

27 08 2011
joyce

WOW… some of the fruit people in the Facebook album look skeletal- http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=8092682&id=532921730

19 12 2012
gaia.sailboat

That’s

That’s because they’re 115.

27 08 2011
27 08 2011
Sean

Help, help, we’re being repressed by Big Pharma and Big Meatsa!

27 08 2011
'Flash' Gordon Wayne Watts, Editor-in-Chief, The Register

The only weakness, so far, I’ve found in my dissenting view is your observation that there may be a common cause to conflate (confuse) facts –in other words: Vegans may be more health-conscious, and thus the healthy lifestyle mindset of vegans may make them eat vegan AND ALSO have other healthy habits (exercise, avoiding fried fats, avoiding drinking, smoking, drugs, maybe even STRESS, etc.)

And I do not deny that these other lifestyle factors may make it look like the healthy avoidance of diseases is due to the vegan diet, but I come back to my earlier point:

With soooo many data points assessing SEVERAL metrics (in the graphs on my research page -e.g., cancer AND fertility problems, assessed with both p- and R- values, statistically,…

http://GordonWatts.com/consumer.html

or

http://GordonWayneWatts.com/consumer.html

or even:

http://Gordon_Watts.Tripod.com/consumer.html

…as I elucidate in other blog entries… I think any conflating factors are canceled out by the weight of so many data points. (More data points = more accuracy & less random chance error.)

Heckm for all I know, maybe vegans or vegetarians are UNHEALTHIER, and get this: I’ve heard that Japanese citizens smoke more cigarettes, but still have less cancer… “Things that make you go ‘hmm…’.”

Translation: It just may be their diet that helps them have longer life-spans, lower cancer rates, etc. than America. Obesity may play a role too, i.e., a conflating factor… LOL

27 08 2011
Gordon Wayne Watts

The only weakness, so far, I’ve found in my dissenting view is your observation that there may be a common cause to conflate (confuse) facts –in other words: Vegans may be more health-conscious, and thus the healthy lifestyle mindset of vegans may make them eat vegan AND ALSO have other healthy habits (exercise, avoiding fried fats, avoiding drinking, smoking, drugs, obesity, & maybe even avoiding or managing STRESS, etc.)

And I do not deny that these other lifestyle factors may make it look like the healthy avoidance of diseases is due to the vegan diet, but I come back to my earlier point:

With soooo many data points assessing SEVERAL metrics (in the graphs on my research page -e.g., cancer AND fertility problems, assessed with both p- and R- values, statistically,…

http://GordonWatts.com/consumer.html

or

http://GordonWayneWatts.com/consumer.html

or even:

http://Gordon_Watts.Tripod.com/consumer.html

…as I elucidate in other blog entries… I think any conflating factors are canceled out by the weight of so many data points. (More data points = more accuracy & less random chance error.)

Heckm for all I know, maybe vegans or vegetarians are UNHEALTHIER, and get this: I’ve heard that Japanese citizens smoke more cigarettes, but still have less cancer… “Things that make you go ‘hmm…’.”

Translation: It just may be their diet that helps them have longer life-spans, lower cancer rates, etc. than America. (Do ya think?)

27 08 2011
PigeonOrStatue

Off topic, but the insurance industry maybe finally waking up to reality:

The Actuary – August 2011 http://www.theactuary.com/actuary/feature/2096092/heart-matter

Life: Heart of the matter
Garth Lane looks at the use of statins to treat high cholesterol and says actuaries should avoid jumping to conclusions about the risk factors associated with heart disease.

14 09 2011
Jo

Great article!

28 08 2011
jack stevens

Mr. Bob might be cutting your funding a bit more this month…unless that grapefruit (i think) in your picture is actually the offspring of a cow! New, savory, delectable…Cowballs ™ (Artificial coloring, Hydrogenated Coconut oil, less than 2%: Cow) *Comes in Green, Blue, and those random,beautiful, hybrid flavors that only nature can create–til’ now!

Maybe a tad funny..?

29 08 2011
Bobby Fernandez

I say we work on a swimsuit calendar for next year: Women of AHS vs. Women of WFF.

29 08 2011
rayty

An interesting find. This will most assuredly keep me coming back for more.

29 08 2011
Gordon Wayne Watts

@ Bobby – I don’t get your joke, but as a practicing vegan, I can assure you that I am not weak:

http://www.youtube.com/gordonwaynewatts#p/u/21/oseUEhVPSKE

320 lb deadlift + 585 lb rack pull @ 120-lb bodyweight (DeadliftDay.wmv)
From: GordonWayneWatts | Apr 7, 2011 | 1,129 views

Also, knowing some women, a few who are even stronger than myself, including one girl that is my own bodyweight, I can assure you that a vegan diet (as practiced by one of my female weighlifter friends for several months) did NOT hurt her strength either. That friend, whom I shall keep anonymous, no longer has a vegan diet (she eats meat on occasion), but she avoids milk, because there are controversies surrounding its health risks. She deadlifted 330 pounds off the ground recently, and that is 10 pounds more than my total, and that is even when I place the weigh on the blocks to compensate for my height disadvantage, and she is onlt 120 pounds like myself and still has a diet that is close to vegan (even if not totally), so the vegan diet does not hurt either males or females in their health –or appearance.

29 08 2011
Bobby Fernandez

@Gordon, Well done. I wonder if you supplement with creatine at all. I used to before I learned not to fear animal protein in my diet. If not, perhaps you might be able to repeat your 2RM after a few seconds of rest (switching the cameras).

My statement wasn’t a joke at all. I’m actually considering organizing this as a fundraiser for our respective organizations. My only hesitation is that I consider myself right smack dab in the middle of that venn diagram as I am an Ayurvedic Wellness Counsellor as well as carnivorous Ancestral Health enthusiast. I’ve been to the full spectrum of events such as the San Diego Healing Arts Festival (mostly vegan crowd they had one food vendor that sold Thai chicken wraps. They had the longest line), National Ayurvedic Medicine Association, Healthy People Conference at Loma Linda University and most recently, the Ancestral Health Symposium. My statement was only this males animalistic reaction to the superior shapes, skin luster, vitality, hair shininess, etc at the AHS that I had never seen at any of the vegan-dominated events. I know there are plenty of plant-based power lifters and MMA fighters (hell the Gladiators of Rome were not afforded the luxury of consuming precious meat regularly) but I hesitate to assert that this is an ideal existance. I have great respect for great minds such as Gabriel Cousens, Dr. Esselstyn and President Clinton but I wouldn’t put thier mugs up against my local fire department if I wanted to sell a calendar.

30 08 2011
JeffreyD

Oh my god. 5’10”, 120 lbs.? Have you ever heard of “The Machinist”? People talk about how utterly disgusting Christian Bale looked. He was 6’0, 123 lbs, which is just a whisper better than you. He was depicting a man whose body and mind had wasted away.

320 lbs. is good at 120 lbs. But a deadlift is supposed to be from the ground. You also use a weird wide footing so you don’t have to lift it as high, and you’re only getting 1/2 ROM. If you lifted a regulation deadlift I’m guessing you’d lift maybe 200-225? Anyway if you want to prove a point you should do a real deadlift, it’s impossible to get anything from the weird hybrid version you’re doing.

In short, it’s impossible to get strong without proper protein. Vegans can do it but it’s very difficult. It’s not all that hard for vegetarians, though…dairy and eggs are great protein sources. Just, most of them tend to live off junk food.

31 08 2011
Gordon Wayne Watts

@ JeffereyD — I’ve actually gained a little bit since I’ve gone vegan — I wrestled in the 114-lb class in high school, but am now 120 or so.

Also, my floor deadlift PR is 285-lbs, and the reason it is so close to th eblock lift is that the blocks only give me 4 inches of advantage, which probably equate to lony like 20% of the full ROM, so the block like of proabably at least 2/3 ROM -and I’m guessing more (though I’d have to measure it 2B sure).

I agree that floor DL (and even that dreeaded DEFICIT dealift) are important –and I’ve done several reps with 225-lbs while I, myself, stood on the 4″ block, which was 8 inches harder than when the weight was on the block & me on the ground.

Regarding protein powder, I highly adore various protein powders.

1 09 2011
David I

“In short, it’s impossible to get strong without proper protein. Vegans can do it but it’s very difficult. It’s not all that hard for vegetarians, though…dairy and eggs are great protein sources.”

Yep. I’ve been a lacto-ovo vegetarian for more than 40 years. I’d never make it as a vegan–even though it’s theoretically possible.

2 09 2011
GordonWayneWattsWatts

@ David — u r probably correct on all points:

It is more difficult to get all that is needed, not so much with protein (even though there is that urban legend), but it is a bit hard to get things like Omega 3’s, 6’s, and/or 9’s (Flax Oil is OK), and vitamin B12 (supplaments), and creatine (I supplament with creatine monohydrate, and then charge the creatines with phosphases by eating loads of carbs after consuming the creating — thereby allowing the creatine PHOSPHATES to be able to donate a ‘P’ to ADP to make it ATP, the quick energy fuel of the body).

‘Lacto-Ovo’… eh?

A Facebook friend who is MY weight, and arm reach, with only 4″ of shorter height is a young woman who can deadlift 330 off the ground, and altho she’s not a vegan any longer, she avoids milk, due to the controversey of milk risks.

Two comments:

#1 — I concur re milk risks: I’d sonner eat UNCLEAN meat that’s improperly COOKED than to drink a glass of milk, if that’s any indication as to which I think is worse.

#2 — This lack of milk did/does NOT hurt her: She’s 120 (or maybe 125) pounds now, and with a reach that is equal to mine, her height of 5’6″ means that she’s pulling across the same distance as ME when I pull off the 4″ cheat blocks (I’m 5-10).

To put things in perspective, I’m Flash Gordon, the superhero, and with requisite superpowers (Observe THIS vid of me lifting 585-lbs, which I’ve recently upped to 635-lbs and soon hope to have posted)

http://www.youtube.com/gordonwaynewatts#p/u/21/oseUEhVPSKE

Yeah, buddy – I wasn’t kidding about my superpowers (and remember, I’m a vegan), but she has recently pulled past my 320-lb box lift with a pull of 330-lbs over the same Range of Motion, and at the same bodyweight –and she’s a girl, so this is quite a feat for her.

Bottom line: Being a vegan did not hurt me, and her recent vegan adventures and her total dislike for milk obviously did not hurt her, so, yes, it is possible. I’ll keep her anonymous out of professional courtesy, but this story is not made up.

Flash Gordon

2 09 2011
Gordon Wayne Watts

CRAPEOLA !! — My post didn’t take (and it’s been over 30 minutes!, so grabbing my saved copy, I’m posting again – this time, the Facebook as the guest posting thing didn’t ‘take’ LOL) — OK, here goes…

@ David I — u r probably correct on all points:

It is more difficult to get all that is needed, not so much with protein (even though there is that urban legend), but it is a bit hard to get things like Omega 3’s, 6’s, and/or 9’s (Flax Oil is OK), and vitamin B12 (supplaments), and creatine (I supplament with creatine monohydrate, and then charge the creatines with phosphases by eating loads of carbs after consuming the creating — thereby allowing the creatine PHOSPHATES to be able to donate a ‘P’ to ADP to make it ATP, the quick energy fuel of the body).

‘Lacto-Ovo’… eh?

A Facebook friend who is MY weight, and arm reach, with only 4″ of shorter height is a young woman who can deadlift 330 off the ground, and altho she’s not a vegan any longer, she avoids milk, due to the controversey of milk risks.

Two comments:

#1 — I concur re milk risks: I’d sonner eat UNCLEAN meat that’s improperly COOKED than to drink a glass of milk, if that’s any indication as to which I think is worse.

#2 — This lack of milk did/does NOT hurt her: She’s 120 (or maybe 125) pounds now, and with a reach that is equal to mine, her height of 5’6″ means that she’s pulling across the same distance as ME when I pull off the 4″ cheat blocks (I’m 5-10).

To put things in perspective, I’m Flash Gordon, the superhero, and with requisite superpowers (Observe THIS vid of me lifting 585-lbs, which I’ve recently upped to 635-lbs and soon hope to have posted)

http://www.youtube.com/gordonwaynewatts#p/u/21/oseUEhVPSKE

Yeah, buddy – I wasn’t kidding about my superpowers (and remember, I’m a vegan), but she has recently pulled past my 320-lb box lift with a pull of 330-lbs over the same Range of Motion, and at the same bodyweight –and she’s a girl, so this is quite a feat for her.

Bottom line: Being a vegan did not hurt me, and her recent vegan adventures and her total dislike for milk obviously did not hurt her, so, yes, it is possible. I’ll keep her anonymous out of professional courtesy, but this story is not made up.

Flash Gordon

21 09 2011
Chippa

who cares how much you can lift if you weigh 120@5’11″…..

21 09 2011
FLASH Gordon Wayne Watts

@Chippa –> I said 5-10… but whatever.

Dude… I’ve actually gained up a bit on my ‘crazy’ vegan diet — I wrestled in the 114 (and sometimes the 105) class in high school — since then, however, I’ve gotten stronger & heavier.

Besides, if (#1) I can’t gain weight (as much as I eat), then why not at least be (#2) healthy & (#3) strong:

2 outta 3 is not bad…

I wonder… is your consicence bothering you that some ‘small’ people are stronger than you? (You sound like an unhappy camper…)

How much can YOU lift, and what are YOUR stats, if I might ask… in this format, if you would not mind:

Male/45/5-10/120-lbs
DL: 285; BP: 160 SQ: 190×2; MP: 110×1; 95×3

Do tell…

29 08 2011
Gordon Wayne Watts

@ Bobby — The reason I didn’t get your joke was because I didn’t know what AHS stood for, or if there was a difference in their diets.

LOL

To answer your question, I add Creatine Monohydrate to my vegan protein shakes, and the creatine ‘charges up,’ if I eat a lot of sugars around the same time, and the monohydrate group is (as I recall) replaced by a phosphate group, so this way, it can donate it to an ADP to charge it up to an ATP — adenosine DI phosphate is only partly charged, and adenosine TRI phosphate is one of the major energy sources fo rshort bursts of energy to get one more rep under maximal loads.

In other words, when I’m running out of ATP’s and need a quick charge, the now-charged Chreatine Phosphates can donate a phosphate group to the ADP & give me a slight more burst of energy -maybe 1-2 more reps or 1-2 mor eseconds of pushing or pulling power to get a weight moving and/or get a better workout.

So, I take it you were suggesting a calender girl beauty competition between vegan AHS and meat-eating WWF people of both genders?

29 08 2011
Bobby Fernandez

Yup, Phosphocreatine is the “go-to” energy store when any skeletal muscle fires. It’s a locked-and-loaded ball of energy that can anaerobically replenish ATP quicker but less efficiently than both glycolysis and beta oxydation. As you mentioned, it’s only good for a few seconds but the phosphoralation is reversible. Your ability to replenish your cells with phosphocreatine is a function of your metabolic fitness. I know the research states that stoichiometrically, vegan and vegetarian athletes can properly nourish themselves through a variety of plant-based protein sources as well as supplementation. My own stance on this issue is that we should take physical activity cues from the same people from whom we take nutritional cues. That is to say, if you want to eat like a Yogi, do little more than a couple asanas and sit around and meditate under a tree for the rest of the day. If you choose to be active and persue strength and/or beauty, eat a little meat every now and again.

30 08 2011
Josh Frey

I loved your “how to win an argument with a vegetarian” speech. Awesome.

Although I mainly just try to avoid fanatical vegans, I do talk to a lot of people who are vegetarians, but are genuinely interested in my point of view since I have such a deep-seeded interest in nutrition. I’ve found that people who are overly dogmatic just aren’t worth arguing with. (But thanks to your presentation, I may just use the “Shut up hippie” approach, haha).

Anyway, great presentation. I can’t believe how involved and knowledgeable you are at such a young age. I’m a year younger than you and just getting started down this path =)

keep up the good work,

Josh

2 09 2011
Padraig

To be honest, I agree with the person who wrote about sinister involvement by industry in the Wikipedia discussion section. Wikipedia IS vulnerable to involvement by pharmaceutical and food industries. The China Study IS a notable study that should IMO be given a page. I don’t understand the need to be sarcastic about it. We know that the diet the USDA recommends is ridiculous, right Denise? The people advocating that could say: “oh the sinister corperate interests involved manipulating decisions haaahaha, the elaborate scheming involved haaahaha”…. but when the laughter dies down, yes that is exactly what they do. They manipulate and press policies in whatever way they can. Many people gain a huge amount of their information and beliefs from Wikipedia, including me I have to say. It is true that there are billions of dollars at stake here.

Many, many thousands of people’s lives revolve around hoping people will eat more meat, some even convincing themselves that it’s true. Of course, some people’s lives revolve around hoping people would eat more fruit also… however The China Study is one of the things that is really a thorn in the side of people whose whole livelihoods depend on people eating more meat. There isn’t anyone whose job it is to specifically do these things… however maybe they do it when they are off work. How many times have you argued vehemently about a movie or about a brand you liked? Now imagine if your whole livelihood was also at stake with people liking or consuming something…. you would very likely want to destroy it.

2 09 2011
Padraig

I mean destroy the threats like The China Study to it, even just perceived ones. Almost every farmer out there wants to say meat is fine and you should buy it and the China Study is a load of crap. They have a financial stake in it also. They have conflicts of interest. People can do very odd things when there are huge amounts of money at stake, and something like Wikipedia is really open to it.

5 09 2011
Steve Wilson

But Padraig haven’t you read the debunking of T Colin Campbell’s China Study by Chris Masterjohn or this blogs very own Denise Minger??? The China Study IS a load of crap. Its vegan propaganda, and the pro-vegan editors of Wikipedia will allow no dissent on its wiki entry. Any criticism is roundly deleted on spurious grounds. I say: put all the pro’s and cons up and let ppl decide for themselves. To do that you must let them have ALL the available information, that is currently not happening because of pro-vegan bias. I’m an ex-vegan – I know how they operate.

5 09 2011
Padraig

Steve Wilson, woah, woah. Whether the China Study is a load of crap or not has nothing to do with this article or with my comments.

If you are saying “but it IS a load of crap” then you are in de facto accepting that if it were NOT a load of crap your reaction would be different… hence you yourself are biased.

I agree that there should be a “controversy” section or a “criticism” section… of course there should be. I agree it is ridiculous if they don’t allow criticism sections there. All I’m saying is that I do think that Wikipedia is open to influence by corperations and by people who are zealots…. in either direction.

9 09 2011
Gordon Wayne Watts

I agree that Wikipedia is probably pro-vegan (biased), and DEFINITELY biased against allowing sources from anyonle less than, say, a triple PhD superhero (slight exaggeration), … and therefore, I would agree that they are WRONG for disallowing the “other side” (such as Denise Minger’s analyses here), but in all honesty, regarding MY analyses of the vegan controversey –see all my recent comments on the various threads of Denises’ blog here AND also the health section of MY blog:

http://GordonWatts.com/#health

or:

http://GordonWayneWatts.com/#health

These show that veganism IS very healthy, if admitedly quite hard to practice (as I admit that I’m eating a neptune sandwich right now, since the vegan places were inconvenient and few & far between), but that said: my ‘bad’ sandwich still is loaded down with many fruits & veggies — just not 100% –and also: I practically NEVER drink milk — I’d sooner eat improperly cooked unclean meat (such as pork, ham, bacon, etc.) that I would drink even one GLASS of milk — the studies are in, and animla products are out (especially milk).

2 09 2011
Padraig

“Oh my god. 5’10″, 120 lbs.? Have you ever heard of “The Machinist”? People talk about how utterly disgusting Christian Bale looked. He was 6’0, 123 lbs, which is just a whisper better than you. He was depicting a man whose body and mind had wasted away.”

Actually Jeffrey D, according to the body mass index Christian Bale would be significantly worse. One pound =/= one inch. According to BMI theory, an increase in weight should be matched by an increase in height *squared* to maintain the same physique (ie. the same BMI). A more modern or refined estimation is that weight should be proportional to height to the power of 2.2…. (weight / height^2.2).

Putting one over the other: (120/123) * (72/70)^2.2 = 1.0379 times the BMI of Christian Bale.

3 09 2011
Gordon Wayne Watts (@Gordon_W_Watts)

Well, neither the guess log in nor the Facebook App is working & it’s been 30 minutes since I posted, so here goes again with TWITTER! — sorry if it double (or triple?) posts:

@ Padraig: Thank you for defending me, but actually it’s a 3rd order function, not a 2nd order function.

To explain what I mean, imagine a Rubik’s cube that is only 1 cubelet large (and each side is 1 inch to make calculations easier –or one centimetre is yr British!).

When you double the height, that is, make it “twice” as tall, to keep the same “shape” (the analogue to BMI here), you’d increase the number of cubes to the THIRD power of 2, that is 2^3, which is 8:

The bottom layer would have 4 cubes (in a 2 by 2 square), ans so would the top layer, for a total of 8.

Tripling the height would mean it takes 3^3 cubelets = 27.

Some ‘Rubik’s Cubes are actually 4x4x4, which would be 4^3 = 64 cubelets!

Now, the height different between me and this other individual is from 72 (him) to 70 (me), yielding a genuine (true) factor of (72/70)^3 = 1.0882 or so, rounded to only 5 sig figs. Therefore, he would have to weigh about 130.58-lbs to be as heavy as me, and conversely, I’d have to weigh about 110.274-lbs to be as skinny as him. I’m skinny, alright, but I eat almost every time I’m hungry, and also I’m not (quite) as skinny as him, but I do admit VERY few people are as skinny or thinner then myself.

3 09 2011
Padraig

@Gordon Wayne Watts, thanks for the explanation. However for human anatomy I think most agree it’s a bit different to than just homologous expansion. Even though a taller person may be twice as tall as a small person, this doesn’t mean he can also be twice as wide and have twice as much depth. For example the skulls of tall people and short people are quite a similar size, and the skulls are hard and heavy so form a big part of the body mass. Still, height ^ 2 was found to be a little inaccurate, so height ^ 2.2 was specifically researched for for this purpose. I also notice how you ignored the fact that he was already slightly heavier than you. I don’t think it’s a good idea to get to such low levels of weight unless it comes really naturally, but I was just making the point that he was a bit in error to say that.

4 09 2011
Gordon Wayne Watts

@ Padraig — You’re weclome.!

Also, … I knew that was coming (your explanation, that is) – yes, you’re right that not all parts of the body would ‘resize’ proportionately, and the head’s a perfect example — I think the torso & limbs (arms, legs) may also behave differently: In drawrfs, the torso is about the same size, but shorter limbs — but when comparing men & women women, I think that limb length is more of a difference … as I recall.

I did not ignore the slight difference in weight (the tall actor being heavier), and as u can see, I factored it into my calculations in my response –or at least tried to.

Lastly, you’re right: This thin (as skinny as I AM) is usually not good, but in my case, it’s naturally occurring, due in large part to bone structure, metabolism, & height, all under genetic control: I eat when hungry roughly 99% of the time. I love food!

21 09 2011
Chippa

“it’s naturally occurring”

Not really, your on a restricted diet which means you inevitably restrict calories or macro-nutrients due to what you can eat(unless you have it really dialed which you clearly don’t at 120). My brother and I both weighed 135 and 140 on the 811 diet at 6’2″. similar bmi to yourself and at the time we both were eating a ton of food. After almost a year on that diet we went lacto-ovo ray peat/WAP/paleo type deal and now ~1 year later we weigh 170&175(~10% bf), the bulk of that we gained within the first couple months.

I think its possible to build on a vegan diet especially if your supplementing but my point is that your clearly restricting something in your diet(calories,carbs, prot, fat) if you weigh that much at your height.

21 09 2011
FLASH Gordon Wayne Watts

@ Chippa — Thank you for at least trying to take a guess at the situation here, but honestly, I only VERY RARELY fast (eg, go without food) — like once every 2-3 years for either religious or bodily cleansing reasons (or both),

No, honestly, I don’t restrict calories, and I rarely have trouble stuffing my face with food –and, occasionally, I do admit when I can’t get good vegan eats, I’ll ‘fall off the wagon,’ and grab a meat-based food item, but I absolutely hate milk: See my research on the milk-cancer connection: http://GordonWatts.com/consumer.html or http://GordonWayneWatts.com/consumer.html

I agree with both your last points: (A) it IS possible to have a complete & good vegan diet — and (B) yes, it is sometimes hard, especially when vegan fruits & veggies are perishable (which means it’s an inconvenience to go to the store every day or so) –and I prefer fresh fruits/veggies over canned or ‘instant’ stuff.

PS: Sorry for letting lose on you in my prior reply, but I meant no insult or offense –I was just a bit adament on my point.

21 09 2011
GordonWayneWatts

I forgot to add: Since you make a good point that obviously something is restricted (you mention the main 3 culprits: Fats, Proteins, Carbs), good guesses, but these are deposits.

You miss 2 other possabilities

1) Maybe I eat, but the food is not metabolised completely, i.e., maybe it’s broken down & some calories escape unused

and/or

2) Maybe i have a high metabolism & burn calories at a fast rate.

21 09 2011
GordonWayneWatts

dumb grammar typo:” I meant these are deposits into the bank account of calories.

And, I meant to follow-up with “what about withdrawals” from said bank account.

#1 — If I eat & stuff is not fully metabolised, then the deposits are “stolen”

#2 — If I burn calories off quickly with a high metabolism, this is tantamount to making “large withdrawals.”

LOL – sorry for the slippery typing fingers here — OK, I’m done.

4 09 2011
Padraig

@Gordon Wayne Watts oh yeah, you are right and seem to have a detailed knowledge of anatomy. Good stuff. =)

4 09 2011
sophius

Bloggers, assemble! Study Denise’s writing to get a taste of how it should be done! Super-entertaining and informative. You’re a role model for us writers and ancestral health movement peons alike.

Cheers to ye!
Colin Murphy

6 09 2011
Txomin

Wikipedia has no credibility. The article you mention is just one of many.

This is not an outside problem or the result of a conspiracy. Wikipedia is a victim of its own design. For instance, no one gives a damn about the authors of the Encyclopedia Britannica or the Webster’s Dictionary. Yet the authors themselves do. Building Wikipedia around author anonymity was a suicide as authors can and do as they please without any concern for accountability. Same goes for administrators and editors.

7 09 2011
Padraig

Txomin, I disagree. There is no credibility in the real world either. The idea of people having “accountability” for what they write in the real world is a nice idea, but in practice it just means they are more likely to write whatever is best for their careers.

7 09 2011
Txomin

I’m afraid you do not understand. I am not talking about arguments while enjoying a cup of coffee. Credibility requires accountability in the real world. It is in fact essential in many matters and in every single activity of any importance. Whether or not it is ultimately there is another matter.

In the realm of knowledge, please take a look at academic journals. Despite the fact that papers are generally worthless, most authors would at least acknowledge the ownership of their own work. In case it is relevant, I am an academic myself.

As a knowledge “database” and in regards to its trustworthiness, Wikipedia fails thoroughly.

7 09 2011
Padraig

Txomin, I really like Wikipedia, both for sourced and unsourced information. Unsourced material could be like material about something in a videogame, or something that noone in their right mind would make up. Sourced material comes from reputable, ie. known sources. All of the material appears not to be in the page on The China Study, I don’t know what justification they have for not allowing criticism to it. That’s all I wanted to say.

You are saying I don’t understand what you mean, but I disagree with this statement also. I believe I do understand what you meant and what you mean now.

29 09 2011
Ash Sierra

hey hey. A little off topic, but what is your opinion on metabolic diets and blood type diets?

29 09 2011
GordonWayneWatts

@ Ash — not sure that u were asking readers (prob. u were asking Denise here?), but yr question got me curious.

The research I’ve done on metabilic typing is that it relies heavily upon a person’s preferences, and that it’s kinda like asking a smoker if he likes smoking, and then using that to determine whether smoking is good for him.

Also, the metabolic typing results in not only suggestion to include red meat consumption for many (if not most) of the people who type themselves (which is questionable -even among meat-eaters), but also (if I’m inferring correctly) advocates highly saturated fats as a cure all for some types.

Yes, different people have different nutritional (and exercise) needs, but ALL people need to eat healthy (and preferrably, unprocessed ‘natural’) food -regardless of the caloric profile (e.g., how much is protein calories, etc.)

Gordon Wayne Watts

BS, The Florida State University,Biological & Chemical Sciences: double major with honours, Biological/Chemical Sciences
AS, United Electronics Institute, Valedictorian

5 11 2011
Rustypelican

There are many pages on Wikipedia that are almost impossible to edit. Try adding any critical citation to anything pertaining to Obama, for example.

24 11 2011
Is Saturated Fat Evil, or Not So Bad After All The Hype? — Truth About Abs

[...] Don’t fear the fat!! (including natural saturated fats)Food Politics80-10-10 Diet by Dr. Graham and AcneThe Food Which Tricks Your Body into Stacking on Pounds – Fast… Posted By Dr. Mercola Heart Disease Risk Factors: Psoriasis And Heart DiseaseFat, Diabetes, and “Sinister Involvement in Wikipedia” [...]

24 11 2011
anna

Happy Thanksgiving, Denise and everyone else.
“Forks & knives” don’t work, so I am here.

2 03 2012
Olga

Hi Denise:
I’ve asked this question on a few blogs and was wondering about your opinion.
Could iodine be part of the reason some primitive societies tolerate carbohydrates so well? All the societies mentioned by Stephan Guyenet who eat primarily carbohydrates successfully live near the ocean. The Kitavan’s, the Tokelauan’s, the Okinawa. Perhpas they can eat carbohydrates, because they have healthy thyroids over their life times. The average Japanese consume about 12 mg of iodine per day. Far more than the RDI of 150 ug. It has been argued that 150 ug is merely the amount of iodine required to prevent goitre and that our actual needs are far greater for optimal health.

Is it possible that the reason some people claim to experience a decrease in thyroid function when on a low carb diet, is becasue a low carb diet unmasks an iodine deficiency?

19 12 2012
gaia.sailboat

Anyone mocking possible devious spying and misinformation campaigns hasn’t been paying attention from the Ralph Nader era onward. Be suspicious, be very suspicious.

19 12 2012
Padraig

yeah I agree gaia. This article has never sat well with me from the start. There might very well be sinister activity like that, there has been before such as in the GM debate with “Anduro Smetacek” and “Mary Murphy” (fake ‘doctors’ and experts created by Monsanto). I told Denise before not to use sarcasm or be too jokey in her articles or she wouldn’t be taken seriously, and I also urged her to please put a chapter about GM in her book, and never even got a reply.

17 01 2013
Fresh Fruits Manufacturers

Siddhi Industries are Manufacturers of Fresh Fruits, Spices Exporters, Suppliers of Fresh Vegetables, Animal Feed, Cereals and Grains, Multani Mitti, Snacks Suppliers, Dairy Products, Rice, Pickles and Papad in India.

6 06 2013
Maistas sportui internetu

It’s a job of meat industry…

30 01 2014
pone1

Do you have any articles that summarize your understanding of how fats (not limited to just saturated fats) might cause insulin resistance?

My own experience of Paleo was that it sent high fasting glucose much higher, and my LDL particle counts exploded on Paleo. By substituting saturated fats with monounsaturated fats (macadamia oil) I was able to quickly lower my fasting glucose, but I still suspect that my very high-fat diet (>50% of caloric intake in fats) is causing me glucose metabolism issues.

It’s very frustrating trying to isolate which fats interact with glucose metabolism because I don’t have a way to easily measure my insulin levels after each meal. The one good study I have read on this topic carefully measured both glucose and insulin levels after meals, and it was the insulin reading – NOT the glucose reading – that clearly showed when insulin resistance was developing after a specific meal.

Most of what I have read on this topic is observational and high level. I think there is some sub-population (and I am in it) that develops strong insulin resistance in presence of fats. But this begs additional questions like:

1) Is the insulin resistance effect dependent on the absolute amount of fat in diet?

2) Is the effect only associated with specific types of fat, such as perhaps dairy fat because of its unique fatty acid profile?

3) Is the effect only associated with specific fatty acids?

4) Is the effect only short-term, thus maybe only affecting glucose metabolism within some period of time after you ingest the fats?

If you know of pointers to good information on these topics, or if you have some opinion on state of research into these questions, would be glad to hear from you.

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